Plum Village (a Buddhist community founded by Thich Nhat Hanh) has a free app with hours and hours of different kinds of breathing and other types of meditation. They also upload meditations regularly on their youtube.
ok certainly this is a high quality source BUT breathwork should be done with supervision of a practitioner that has some sense. Like swimming (?) this ordinary activity can do great damage in relatively rare situations, or someone trying to do "extreme" practices without guardrails.
1) I tried it, enjoyed it, thank you for building it.
2) I learned something new: I was aware of how making the exhale longer than the inhale promoted relaxation. Somehow I hadn't thought of inverting it for the opposite effect: more energy. Your app mentioned it and it was an "aha" moment for me. I tried it, and certainly feel something, but too early to say if it's a placebo effect or something real. Thank you for this new knowledge.
3) The pause portion. What does Richie Davidson (or other research say about it). What does it do, please? That is, what is the difference between not pausing at all between inhale and exhale, vs. pausing (i.e. box breathing)? Thanks in advance.
There are lots of different ways to do this. The important thing for anyone wanting to get started is just to get started and not get hung up on which one you're doing. Box breathing, Wim Hof method, etc, are all great and any breathwork is better than none.
For an intro to the topic, James Nestor's Breath is excellent.
Every time I try breathwork (be it box or x-y-z) I feel that the intervals are too long - by the time I finish breathing out my brain goes into panic mode and the next breath is not enough to compensate. I find them the exact opposite of relaxing.
Your urge to breathe comes from your brain's sensitivity to CO2, which can be trained. In fact, as is also discussed in the book the grandparent mentioned, high sensitivity to CO2 might cause everything from having short breath to full-blown panic attacks.
In other words: Lowering your CO2 sensitivity and learning to breathe slowly by doing breathwork is a skill worth acquiring. Your brain going into panic mode in a comparatively relaxed breathing mode could be an indication that your CO2 sensitivity is rather high.
Just shorten the intervals. It's not a big deal. When I did yoga training in the pramayama (breath work) they started with quite short intervals, and the retention without air in the lungs was skipped at first.
It's completely fine imo and I don't think there's a need to get hung up on details like hitting a prescribed 4-4-4-4. 3-3-0-3 would be ok too.
A breath coach told me that breathing on a timer stresses some people out instead of calming them down. E.g., people who have experienced trauma. Submitting their bodily functions to an outside force's control can be very stressful.
Her approach adapted breathing patterns to listen to your body's internal signals for when to breath in and out.
I also do not find breathwork relaxing, and it's not always meant to be. The Wim Hof method in particular will definitely amp you up and cause some strange feelings. But if you are really having a bad time with it and want to continue, just find some interval that works for you. There is no one right answer for how to do this.
On a personal note, I realized through breathwork that I was taking deep breaths incorrectly for most of my life. Maybe it's my anatomy, but when I take a deep, fast breath, my nostrils constrict and limit the airflow. It was a real breakthrough for me when I learned to focus on my diaphram while flaring my nostrils. The breaths I can take are so much more satisfying.
Wim hof may not be meant to be relaxing, but box (square) breathing is definitely supposed to be. It's recommended in many places for anxiety by reputable organisations.
Of course, different people are different. If it actually makes anxiety worse then don't do it, or seek advice. It's difficult to know why the GP has this reaction.
Yes I always end up yawning/having to breathe through the mouth occasionally when trying to do this kind of thing. Perhaps I just don't get enough air through the nose.
I like to start breathing using my own rythm and then after a while the intervals widen naturally and I could then synchronize my breathing with one of the well known patterns but usuallly I don't. If I try to start with e.g. 4-7-8 I have the same problem of going into panic mode and then I am not relaxed at all and heart pulses go up instead of going down.
for me the out of sync happens during the transition between cycles. I think the problem is the visualization in this 4-7-8 app. you don't know when the exhale is going to end, you are almost at the end of exhale and inhale starts immediately. .There should be a small gap of 1 between the cycles 4-7-8-1-4-7-8-1 ... or the animation should indicate when the exhale is going to end.
I ended up in the same situation with this 4-7-8 Breathing. Actually with this one the problem for me is that there is no interval between cycles. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself.
I think after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up.
INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.
Breathing through the nose, in for a count of three and out for five, then repeat.
As long as the outbreath is longer than the inbreath, you will get some effect.
Could also try relaxing first by massaging the Vagus nerve. An easy way to start with that is to massage in a circular motion the skin area in front of the Tragus (front skin flap) on each ear.
You can combine that with the measured breathing for added effect. They both stimulate the Parasympathetic nervous system.
You should probably start by calming down first, such as lying on your back. Breathe as slowly as you want to for 2 minutes, and then start counting to see how slow your breath is.
I tried imposing structure but whenever I feel you like you say you do, I just revert to the mean. The rule is to not stress your system / mind above a certain threshold.
is Nestor's book really excellent? I didn't make it more than halfway through because nowhere could i find any references for all the outlandish claims that are made. A lot of them are implausible anyway, and so far as I know the actual science does not support all these theories put forth in the book. If a thing is made out to be the cure to everything, it's likely the cure to nothing.
would be happy to have some good references.
this isnt to say that breathing exercises are not beneficial, but this book left me scratching my head.
The most outlandish thing I can remember was about chewing hard gum to fix your teeth, which seems kind of crazy but could be true. I don't remember breathing being posited as a cure to everything, and I also remember plenty of discussion of various studies. It seems quite believable to me that improper breathing causes all sorts of problems. It's possible I'm too credulous, or that you're too incredulous. Who's to say.
You can definitely pass out but that's why you don't do it standing up or driving. And of course if you're doing ice baths there are plenty of ways to screw that up.
But overall if you're laying down doing wim hof breathing, I'd say no.
And of course individuals might have circumstances or conditions that do make it dangerous. They always tell you not to do it if you're pregnant, for example.
If you want breathing exercises that go way into the specialized deep end, you can always pick up the sport of 3p rifle. You'll get incidentally very good at calming via breath, because of the tight feedback loop of holes-must-go-closer-to-the-center
I use Breathly. It's great visually and audibly. And, you can use a custom timing. It also has a few other presets, including box breathing. And, it keeps the screen on, though I wish it would work when my android is locked (in my pocket).
How does it matter what part of the cycle it stops on? Maybe better to show the timer is done. Maybe they can add a disclaimer for people that aren't sure if they should keep breathing when they're not being told to.
Sorry, it should be fixed now. The timer being multiples of a full cycle is something I'm going to add very soon, it annoys me a little bit too while using.
Not a fan of apps like this, tbh. First, most of us need to learn proper diaphragmatic breathing, which is *not* belly breathing. Then just sit still without any "cosmic" sounds or timer-apps and bring awareness to the breath. Force nothing, just observe. Calmness and relaxation go hand in hand with letting go and surrender.
You are probably well aware, but always worth highlighting the risk of shallow water blackout and death if you do this wrong and unsupervised. Always have a dive buddy.
Someone I went to school with almost died from this. Was in a coma for 48h and spent a month in hospital afterwards. And that was in a public swimming pool where he was discovered quite quickly.
It effectively removes the normally leftover carbon dioxide from blood, but it does not oxygenate blood significantly more than normal.
The end result: if you hold your breath after hyperventilation and start doing physical activities, you can get dangerously deoxygenated blood. Without the usual feeling of asphyxiation that is normally triggered by high CO2 content.
Deoxygenated blood + brain = fainting. Which can be lethal when swimming.
Can you elaborate? As others are saying this can be extremely dangerous. Normally I wouldn't just reiterate other comments but if it might save a life can't hurt to be sure.
I wonder how much is the specific technique vs. the fact that something like 4-7-8 requires you to pay attention to and focus on your breathing? Have their been any studies where participants were asked to do tasks while also box breathing etc?
I wonder the same thing too. Especially since there are all kinds of different techniques that people recommend. And because the ideal length of time for the different phases must surely vary from person to person, since it's a physiological thing and everyone's body is different. It really seems to me (disclaimer: I'm a layperson) like the important thing is just focusing on measured breathing, not the exact one-size-fits-all measure.
A few years ago I was determined to practice, and it was hard, and then it became easy, auto-relaxing, like a cheat.
I lost that practice and now it's hard again.
I think GP is right to question technique vs. attention - I think we don't know much about the answer.
But a point I recall in Nestors book is that there isn't really a lot of scientific study on breath - there is much more study on specific diseases, and e.g. teeth have a full profession of study and development that the everyday act of breathing doesn't have (even though these might be highly related!).
<Opinionated> Some of the best references about breath today are not scientific, but written in the oldest books that survived in different cultures - and anyways, how much does the specific mechanism matter?
Watch this space though - science is catching up! </>
I think the important thing is only that you exhale longer than you inhale. Inhaling activates SNS, exhaling PNS, the latter is for relaxation. So the more you can tilt that ratio towards exhaling while still breathing comfortably the better
No, I think you're possibly misunderstanding the issue. That option you mention allows one to change the sound used, which I suspect we all get, but instead the problem is there's no sound between breathing in and breathing out. You need three audible cues not two.
from the website '... Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, ... ' most certainly not. yoga practitioners have been doing this / similar exercises for quite a while now.
I feel the 4-7-8 is more natural than box breathing the length seems to align more with the natural breathing without constraining it to fixed length. I feel like exhaling takes usually longer than inhaling
I feel the opposite. Especially the part about NOT breathing for 7 (!) seconds, which doesn't feel naturall at all. Something like 4-2-5 would have been much closer to my natural. To me the benefit of this thread is the comments recommending other apps/methods.
Nice app! Wish there was a small interval between the cycles for catchup. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself. I think after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up. INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.
Get a cheap pulse oximeter and try it yourself if you're curious. It will not cause your oxygen levels to change in any meaningful way barring some very serious health issues.
Click the ying yang looking icon to get an explanation
> 4-7-8 Breathing
The 4-7-8 technique involves inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, and exhaling for 8. This pattern is repeated several times. Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, it helps reduce anxiety, manage stress, and promote better sleep by triggering your body's natural relaxation response and slowing your heart rate.
Nothing fancy but it works. Been using the watch app during stressful meetings (nobody notices you're doing breathing exercises). Has all the standard box patterns plus some custom options.
For me box breathing worked better (inhale 4 seconds, hold 4 seconds, exhale 4 seconds and hold 4 seconds). I use a little app called One Deep Breath. It had great effect on my blood pressure and anxiety.
Is there something wrong on my end? The IN animates fully, which is a nice visual cue. The HOLD remains static which is nice. But the OUT does not completely animate and it throws me off.
Easily one of the worst UI's I've seen since 2020.
Timing the initial in/exhales is tricky, because the circle contracts, not to its center, but to a nearly invisible (on my screen at least) smaller circle in the middle. No visible counters.
After a while, it just says "Hold". No indication that we're done. And I sit there, almost dying for 2 minutes before realizing, that it's done some kind of quiet-quitting routine on me.
For me, it was playing a musical instrument (transverse flute, then shakuhachi) that showed me that I really don't know how to breathe deeply with my diaphragm. Or, that I wasn't aware of it at all, now my breathing is more conscious, and I tend to focus on it many times, for example, when I'm just walking on the street. Concentrating on your breath is a great way to stay rooted in the present and become aware of your thought processes. Breathing is magical :)
not stupid at all! the idea is that practicing conscious breathing techniques can have effects on your stress levels and cognition and such. it's not that you're learning how to breathe, but rather how to breathe for a desired effect.
For those who have a scientific interest in breathwork, I suggest James Nestor's _Breath_. It goes into the biological aspects with a minimum amount of woo. And for those who want a crash course, I recommend getting a getting a pulse oximeter or other real time heart rate tracker and experimenting with various breathing patterns (Google [box breathing], [resonance breathing], etc) to watch your heart rate change. It was one of the first biofeedback experiments I did and still an impressive demo of the power of breathwork to this day.
The correct way to recommend to the scientifically inclined to learn about breathwork “without the woo woo” is to point to a meta analysis. The first one I found suggests that yeah, breathwork can lead to lower stress but that most studies feel biased and can overhype most other benefits.
To me, breathwork falls under that category of positive exercises that can give a boost in life. I would never overhype “the power of breathwork” to anyone. Just like going to the gym, yoga, dancing, and most other similar activities.
It's useful to manipulate your internal states. E.g, intentionally slow down your heart rate when in bed and trying to fall asleep. Or intentionally raise it when you want to feel more alert without using caffeine or doing jumping jacks in the middle of the office.
cures isn't the right word, but it lets you set conditions in your body once you've practiced for a bit. slow, deep breathing can help you remain calm and focused. inversely, quick, shallow breaths lead to a bit of hyperoxia and can help bring your emotions to a more intense state as well as basically "banking" oxygen for short bursts of physical activity. It's about being in control of your body and mind, and gaining that control through experimentation and observation. There are already a couple examples of the science behind breathwork in this thread but I feel compelled to point out that breath work is the foundation of meditation and practiced meditators have shown truly incredible control over their bodies and emotions.
The primary source of benefits from breathwork is believed to be controlling the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal hormonal axis in the body. These three glands are basically in charge of the body's stress hormones, and those stress hormones are how the body broadcasts to all of its constituent parts what state the body is in and leaves each part to respond appropriately. So in someone with a hyperactive HPA axis you're going to see the immune system overrespond because the body is getting ready to deal with wounds that could become infected, you're going to see the cardiovascular system overrespond to prepare for phsyical exertion, you're going to see the digestive system underrespond because now's not the time to break down that sandwich there's a goddamned bear chasing me, all sorts of ways your body optimizes for emergency mode when the HPA axis is active.
Thing is, what triggers emergency mode has changed a lot as we've developed as a species. Used to be the aforementioned bear. A bear is an emergency, but it's a 5 minute emergency. After 5 minutes it's over and either you survived it or you didn't. Now our lives are so complex and weird that people have emergencies that last decades. Trying to pay the rent with a minimum wage job is arguably an emergency that lasts your entire adult life and the HPA axis is responding to very real fears of having no food, nowhere to live, no social status and other things that matter to us on a biological level. If the HPA pathway remains too active for too long all of those downstream systems I mention earlier start malfunctioning because they've been running permanently in a mode that was only ever intended to be temporary. The ability to consciously take control of that by regulating your breath and focus doesn't just make you feel calmer, it allows those systems that have been redlining for a long time to take their foot off of the gas. It can lower your blood pressure and heart rate, which lowers the risk of heart attack and stroke. Its linked to abatement of symptoms in things as disparate as lupus, irritable bowel syndrome, adhd, dementia and fibromyalgia. Not to mention that people report being happier, less stressed and more engaged with their lives and loved ones with 20 minutes/day of just sitting quietly and paying attention to how their breathing works without actually trying to alter it at all.
tldr - it's linked to relief in several conditions
most of my info (prolly all of it tbh) comes from Dr K's lectures at healthygamer.gg - full disclosure, i don't work for them, i don't get paid by them, they don't know i exist but i am a member who has worked through a couple of their courses. They also have a youtube channel if you want an opportunity to check out some of the info for free.
Plum Village (a Buddhist community founded by Thich Nhat Hanh) has a free app with hours and hours of different kinds of breathing and other types of meditation. They also upload meditations regularly on their youtube.
This web page also has some good resources and breathing meditations. https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/mindfulness-practice
Highly recommend
ok certainly this is a high quality source BUT breathwork should be done with supervision of a practitioner that has some sense. Like swimming (?) this ordinary activity can do great damage in relatively rare situations, or someone trying to do "extreme" practices without guardrails.
Your position is that breathing practice is too dangerous to attempt unsupervised due to risks equivalent to drowning while swimming?
While I don't doubt there's a way to breathe so wrong that it has negative effects, I'm sceptical.
But I wouldn't think twice about swimming alone, so maybe I live on the edge.
I made a simple app inspired by Richie Davidson’s research that teaches people how to change their state with breath.
https://breathing-trainer.replit.app/
1) I tried it, enjoyed it, thank you for building it.
2) I learned something new: I was aware of how making the exhale longer than the inhale promoted relaxation. Somehow I hadn't thought of inverting it for the opposite effect: more energy. Your app mentioned it and it was an "aha" moment for me. I tried it, and certainly feel something, but too early to say if it's a placebo effect or something real. Thank you for this new knowledge.
3) The pause portion. What does Richie Davidson (or other research say about it). What does it do, please? That is, what is the difference between not pausing at all between inhale and exhale, vs. pausing (i.e. box breathing)? Thanks in advance.
There are lots of different ways to do this. The important thing for anyone wanting to get started is just to get started and not get hung up on which one you're doing. Box breathing, Wim Hof method, etc, are all great and any breathwork is better than none.
For an intro to the topic, James Nestor's Breath is excellent.
Every time I try breathwork (be it box or x-y-z) I feel that the intervals are too long - by the time I finish breathing out my brain goes into panic mode and the next breath is not enough to compensate. I find them the exact opposite of relaxing.
Your urge to breathe comes from your brain's sensitivity to CO2, which can be trained. In fact, as is also discussed in the book the grandparent mentioned, high sensitivity to CO2 might cause everything from having short breath to full-blown panic attacks.
In other words: Lowering your CO2 sensitivity and learning to breathe slowly by doing breathwork is a skill worth acquiring. Your brain going into panic mode in a comparatively relaxed breathing mode could be an indication that your CO2 sensitivity is rather high.
Just shorten the intervals. It's not a big deal. When I did yoga training in the pramayama (breath work) they started with quite short intervals, and the retention without air in the lungs was skipped at first.
It's completely fine imo and I don't think there's a need to get hung up on details like hitting a prescribed 4-4-4-4. 3-3-0-3 would be ok too.
A breath coach told me that breathing on a timer stresses some people out instead of calming them down. E.g., people who have experienced trauma. Submitting their bodily functions to an outside force's control can be very stressful.
Her approach adapted breathing patterns to listen to your body's internal signals for when to breath in and out.
I don't have trauma (that I can recall) which seems breath related, but this is my case.
I'm also kinda ok with guided breath work of the "breath in, hold, out" kind but if I'm counting I get stressed out.
EMDR helped me to get rid of this controlled breathing stress.
I also do not find breathwork relaxing, and it's not always meant to be. The Wim Hof method in particular will definitely amp you up and cause some strange feelings. But if you are really having a bad time with it and want to continue, just find some interval that works for you. There is no one right answer for how to do this.
On a personal note, I realized through breathwork that I was taking deep breaths incorrectly for most of my life. Maybe it's my anatomy, but when I take a deep, fast breath, my nostrils constrict and limit the airflow. It was a real breakthrough for me when I learned to focus on my diaphram while flaring my nostrils. The breaths I can take are so much more satisfying.
Wim hof may not be meant to be relaxing, but box (square) breathing is definitely supposed to be. It's recommended in many places for anxiety by reputable organisations.
Of course, different people are different. If it actually makes anxiety worse then don't do it, or seek advice. It's difficult to know why the GP has this reaction.
They also teach box breathing in the US Army.
Yes I always end up yawning/having to breathe through the mouth occasionally when trying to do this kind of thing. Perhaps I just don't get enough air through the nose.
I like to start breathing using my own rythm and then after a while the intervals widen naturally and I could then synchronize my breathing with one of the well known patterns but usuallly I don't. If I try to start with e.g. 4-7-8 I have the same problem of going into panic mode and then I am not relaxed at all and heart pulses go up instead of going down.
for me the out of sync happens during the transition between cycles. I think the problem is the visualization in this 4-7-8 app. you don't know when the exhale is going to end, you are almost at the end of exhale and inhale starts immediately. .There should be a small gap of 1 between the cycles 4-7-8-1-4-7-8-1 ... or the animation should indicate when the exhale is going to end.
I ended up in the same situation with this 4-7-8 Breathing. Actually with this one the problem for me is that there is no interval between cycles. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself. I think after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up. INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.
Pages 9 - 14 of the following pdf go into more detail about this aspect of softening breathing mechanics:
https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b68ec804-ba42-4194-b405-d1f...
Don’t a lot about the author. I just came across the doc on Reddit and the practical parts of what’s described checked out.
You can begin with an easier pattern…
Breathing through the nose, in for a count of three and out for five, then repeat.
As long as the outbreath is longer than the inbreath, you will get some effect.
Could also try relaxing first by massaging the Vagus nerve. An easy way to start with that is to massage in a circular motion the skin area in front of the Tragus (front skin flap) on each ear.
You can combine that with the measured breathing for added effect. They both stimulate the Parasympathetic nervous system.
Even easier: start by simply breathing in and out through your nose, without trying to control the duration. Just sitting and breathing.
It's supposed to be ratios, not literal seconds. The app should be adjustable for you small lunged people.
You should probably start by calming down first, such as lying on your back. Breathe as slowly as you want to for 2 minutes, and then start counting to see how slow your breath is.
I tried imposing structure but whenever I feel you like you say you do, I just revert to the mean. The rule is to not stress your system / mind above a certain threshold.
is Nestor's book really excellent? I didn't make it more than halfway through because nowhere could i find any references for all the outlandish claims that are made. A lot of them are implausible anyway, and so far as I know the actual science does not support all these theories put forth in the book. If a thing is made out to be the cure to everything, it's likely the cure to nothing.
would be happy to have some good references.
this isnt to say that breathing exercises are not beneficial, but this book left me scratching my head.
The most outlandish thing I can remember was about chewing hard gum to fix your teeth, which seems kind of crazy but could be true. I don't remember breathing being posited as a cure to everything, and I also remember plenty of discussion of various studies. It seems quite believable to me that improper breathing causes all sorts of problems. It's possible I'm too credulous, or that you're too incredulous. Who's to say.
This is a decent critique: https://geeky.yoga/2021/12/20/breath-book-review/
Basically the last third of the book is a bibliography. It's filled with tons of scientific references.
Iant wim hof dangerous?
You can definitely pass out but that's why you don't do it standing up or driving. And of course if you're doing ice baths there are plenty of ways to screw that up.
But overall if you're laying down doing wim hof breathing, I'd say no.
And of course individuals might have circumstances or conditions that do make it dangerous. They always tell you not to do it if you're pregnant, for example.
If you want breathing exercises that go way into the specialized deep end, you can always pick up the sport of 3p rifle. You'll get incidentally very good at calming via breath, because of the tight feedback loop of holes-must-go-closer-to-the-center
See e.g. Reinkenmeier describing breath work in
standing: https://youtu.be/dHsG3GU9_PY?si=qlaLrSfKLCeiCgl4
prone: https://youtu.be/5odRbYSbDIk?si=joBeFyyUrwBvQ7bk
Just general: https://youtu.be/JJ3zXuFsrfk?si=xdQ5NY0cHfK89CCg
The general points (deep from diaphragm, lean back, relax shoulders, etc) also carry over to other discipline like music (wind instruments at least).
As a smallbore prone beginner I hadn't made this connection yet but it makes a lot of sense. Time for some deeper investigation...
I see one problem in the UX. When breathing out you cannot see where the circle will stop so it is difficult to mentally plan this phase of the cycle.
Also, there's no 'ding' at the point the breath-out stops and the next breath-in cycle begins.
Yes, this is the big flaw in an otherwise nice little app. If this were fixed you could use it without looking.
I use Breathly. It's great visually and audibly. And, you can use a custom timing. It also has a few other presets, including box breathing. And, it keeps the screen on, though I wish it would work when my android is locked (in my pocket).
https://github.com/mmazzarolo/breathly-app
Great app, just tried it, works very nicely and has just the right set of things it should have, thanks!
There's also Medito (closed-source but nonprofit), which has all sorts of guided meditations.
I used it and the timer stopped when I was in the Hold command. Am I allowed to exhale?
I think the timer should be a multiple of the time to complete one full cycle, ending on an exhale.
I have been holding back my breath for 2 days now, it still shows hold.
How does it matter what part of the cycle it stops on? Maybe better to show the timer is done. Maybe they can add a disclaimer for people that aren't sure if they should keep breathing when they're not being told to.
Sorry, it should be fixed now. The timer being multiples of a full cycle is something I'm going to add very soon, it annoys me a little bit too while using.
Okay, the exercise shouldn't finish during a breath cycle anymore :)
I think it's because the wss connection drops out, least that was what was spammed in my console logs.
Same thing happened to me
> Am I allowed to exhale?
It stopped for me too. I hope someone answers this soon.
Not a fan of apps like this, tbh. First, most of us need to learn proper diaphragmatic breathing, which is *not* belly breathing. Then just sit still without any "cosmic" sounds or timer-apps and bring awareness to the breath. Force nothing, just observe. Calmness and relaxation go hand in hand with letting go and surrender.
I have used 3-7 breathing to prepare for diving. Inhale 3 seconds, exhale 7 seconds, for at least a full minute, followed by hyperventilating 5 times.
Lets me hold my breath for 4–5 minutes if I don't move too much.
You are probably well aware, but always worth highlighting the risk of shallow water blackout and death if you do this wrong and unsupervised. Always have a dive buddy.
Someone I went to school with almost died from this. Was in a coma for 48h and spent a month in hospital afterwards. And that was in a public swimming pool where he was discovered quite quickly.
Be VERY careful about hyperventilating!
It effectively removes the normally leftover carbon dioxide from blood, but it does not oxygenate blood significantly more than normal.
The end result: if you hold your breath after hyperventilation and start doing physical activities, you can get dangerously deoxygenated blood. Without the usual feeling of asphyxiation that is normally triggered by high CO2 content.
Deoxygenated blood + brain = fainting. Which can be lethal when swimming.
Thank you for this information, I wasn't aware of the danger associated with this.
Can you elaborate? As others are saying this can be extremely dangerous. Normally I wouldn't just reiterate other comments but if it might save a life can't hurt to be sure.
Hyperventilating is probably a too strong word. I just draw deep breath 3 to 4 times before going under.
I wonder how much is the specific technique vs. the fact that something like 4-7-8 requires you to pay attention to and focus on your breathing? Have their been any studies where participants were asked to do tasks while also box breathing etc?
I wonder the same thing too. Especially since there are all kinds of different techniques that people recommend. And because the ideal length of time for the different phases must surely vary from person to person, since it's a physiological thing and everyone's body is different. It really seems to me (disclaimer: I'm a layperson) like the important thing is just focusing on measured breathing, not the exact one-size-fits-all measure.
People say that it's a practice.
A few years ago I was determined to practice, and it was hard, and then it became easy, auto-relaxing, like a cheat.
I lost that practice and now it's hard again.
I think GP is right to question technique vs. attention - I think we don't know much about the answer.
But a point I recall in Nestors book is that there isn't really a lot of scientific study on breath - there is much more study on specific diseases, and e.g. teeth have a full profession of study and development that the everyday act of breathing doesn't have (even though these might be highly related!).
<Opinionated> Some of the best references about breath today are not scientific, but written in the oldest books that survived in different cultures - and anyways, how much does the specific mechanism matter?
Watch this space though - science is catching up! </>
> teeth have a full profession of study and development that the everyday act of breathing doesn't have
Aren't pneumologist that profession?
I mean they don't seem to have focused on breathing patterns but I'm doubtful dentists have focused on chewing patterns either.
I think the important thing is only that you exhale longer than you inhale. Inhaling activates SNS, exhaling PNS, the latter is for relaxation. So the more you can tilt that ratio towards exhaling while still breathing comfortably the better
There should probably be an audible cue to go from exhaling to inhaling no?
Agree! I could do this with my eyes closed if not for that. A simple "bip" noise or something.
There is an option under cue sounds, if you're using a phone I think you might need to take it off silent :) Let me know if that works.
No, I think you're possibly misunderstanding the issue. That option you mention allows one to change the sound used, which I suspect we all get, but instead the problem is there's no sound between breathing in and breathing out. You need three audible cues not two.
https://www.breathbelly.com/
This link is better imo because it also shows the standard box alongside the 4-7-8
from the website '... Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, ... ' most certainly not. yoga practitioners have been doing this / similar exercises for quite a while now.
I feel the 4-7-8 is more natural than box breathing the length seems to align more with the natural breathing without constraining it to fixed length. I feel like exhaling takes usually longer than inhaling
I feel the opposite. Especially the part about NOT breathing for 7 (!) seconds, which doesn't feel naturall at all. Something like 4-2-5 would have been much closer to my natural. To me the benefit of this thread is the comments recommending other apps/methods.
Nice app! Wish there was a small interval between the cycles for catchup. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself. I think after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up. INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.
I had better experience with the 4-7-11 technique: inhale for 4 seconds, exhale for 7 seconds, repeating for 11 minutes:
https://github.com/mmazzarolo/breathly-app/issues/73
Unless you take really deep breaths, I feel like this is just going to end up with a slight oxygen deficiency...
Get a cheap pulse oximeter and try it yourself if you're curious. It will not cause your oxygen levels to change in any meaningful way barring some very serious health issues.
> Unless you take really deep breaths
That is the entire point
That’s how it works.
Click the ying yang looking icon to get an explanation
> 4-7-8 Breathing The 4-7-8 technique involves inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, and exhaling for 8. This pattern is repeated several times. Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, it helps reduce anxiety, manage stress, and promote better sleep by triggering your body's natural relaxation response and slowing your heart rate.
For anyone wanting something portable, I stumbled across this iOS app a while back:
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/box-breathing-meditation/id673...
Nothing fancy but it works. Been using the watch app during stressful meetings (nobody notices you're doing breathing exercises). Has all the standard box patterns plus some custom options.
For me box breathing worked better (inhale 4 seconds, hold 4 seconds, exhale 4 seconds and hold 4 seconds). I use a little app called One Deep Breath. It had great effect on my blood pressure and anxiety.
Nice!
Is there something wrong on my end? The IN animates fully, which is a nice visual cue. The HOLD remains static which is nice. But the OUT does not completely animate and it throws me off.
Looks fine to me. The circle grows when you're inhaling and shrinks when you're exhaling.
Easily one of the worst UI's I've seen since 2020.
Timing the initial in/exhales is tricky, because the circle contracts, not to its center, but to a nearly invisible (on my screen at least) smaller circle in the middle. No visible counters.
After a while, it just says "Hold". No indication that we're done. And I sit there, almost dying for 2 minutes before realizing, that it's done some kind of quiet-quitting routine on me.
Other than that I enjoyed it.
Same - I kept holding and holding. I am now writing this from my grave.
After a few cycles, the counter just completely stopped at the "Hold" phase! Damn good prank but could potentially harm someone gullible.
The Android app Prana Breath is the best I've found for setting breathing ratios.
This may be a stupid question, but why do we need to exercise breathing? We do it all the time anyway, shouldn't we be pretty good at it by now?
For me, it was playing a musical instrument (transverse flute, then shakuhachi) that showed me that I really don't know how to breathe deeply with my diaphragm. Or, that I wasn't aware of it at all, now my breathing is more conscious, and I tend to focus on it many times, for example, when I'm just walking on the street. Concentrating on your breath is a great way to stay rooted in the present and become aware of your thought processes. Breathing is magical :)
:)
People run, walk, and do all sort of things wrong even though they "practice" them daily
To be fair, we also practice breathing at night.
not stupid at all! the idea is that practicing conscious breathing techniques can have effects on your stress levels and cognition and such. it's not that you're learning how to breathe, but rather how to breathe for a desired effect.
Stress relief, thanks, that makes sense.
You don't do breathing exercises to get better at breathing. It's for your brain.
I use my mind all the time. I’m not a meditator.
For those who have a scientific interest in breathwork, I suggest James Nestor's _Breath_. It goes into the biological aspects with a minimum amount of woo. And for those who want a crash course, I recommend getting a getting a pulse oximeter or other real time heart rate tracker and experimenting with various breathing patterns (Google [box breathing], [resonance breathing], etc) to watch your heart rate change. It was one of the first biofeedback experiments I did and still an impressive demo of the power of breathwork to this day.
The correct way to recommend to the scientifically inclined to learn about breathwork “without the woo woo” is to point to a meta analysis. The first one I found suggests that yeah, breathwork can lead to lower stress but that most studies feel biased and can overhype most other benefits.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366645304_Effect_of...
To me, breathwork falls under that category of positive exercises that can give a boost in life. I would never overhype “the power of breathwork” to anyone. Just like going to the gym, yoga, dancing, and most other similar activities.
Or just ... breathe normally? Your body can handle this pretty well on its own.
What's the point of this hyper-optimization? (Unless it cures a condition obviously.)
It's useful to manipulate your internal states. E.g, intentionally slow down your heart rate when in bed and trying to fall asleep. Or intentionally raise it when you want to feel more alert without using caffeine or doing jumping jacks in the middle of the office.
>unless it cures a condition
cures isn't the right word, but it lets you set conditions in your body once you've practiced for a bit. slow, deep breathing can help you remain calm and focused. inversely, quick, shallow breaths lead to a bit of hyperoxia and can help bring your emotions to a more intense state as well as basically "banking" oxygen for short bursts of physical activity. It's about being in control of your body and mind, and gaining that control through experimentation and observation. There are already a couple examples of the science behind breathwork in this thread but I feel compelled to point out that breath work is the foundation of meditation and practiced meditators have shown truly incredible control over their bodies and emotions.
The primary source of benefits from breathwork is believed to be controlling the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal hormonal axis in the body. These three glands are basically in charge of the body's stress hormones, and those stress hormones are how the body broadcasts to all of its constituent parts what state the body is in and leaves each part to respond appropriately. So in someone with a hyperactive HPA axis you're going to see the immune system overrespond because the body is getting ready to deal with wounds that could become infected, you're going to see the cardiovascular system overrespond to prepare for phsyical exertion, you're going to see the digestive system underrespond because now's not the time to break down that sandwich there's a goddamned bear chasing me, all sorts of ways your body optimizes for emergency mode when the HPA axis is active.
Thing is, what triggers emergency mode has changed a lot as we've developed as a species. Used to be the aforementioned bear. A bear is an emergency, but it's a 5 minute emergency. After 5 minutes it's over and either you survived it or you didn't. Now our lives are so complex and weird that people have emergencies that last decades. Trying to pay the rent with a minimum wage job is arguably an emergency that lasts your entire adult life and the HPA axis is responding to very real fears of having no food, nowhere to live, no social status and other things that matter to us on a biological level. If the HPA pathway remains too active for too long all of those downstream systems I mention earlier start malfunctioning because they've been running permanently in a mode that was only ever intended to be temporary. The ability to consciously take control of that by regulating your breath and focus doesn't just make you feel calmer, it allows those systems that have been redlining for a long time to take their foot off of the gas. It can lower your blood pressure and heart rate, which lowers the risk of heart attack and stroke. Its linked to abatement of symptoms in things as disparate as lupus, irritable bowel syndrome, adhd, dementia and fibromyalgia. Not to mention that people report being happier, less stressed and more engaged with their lives and loved ones with 20 minutes/day of just sitting quietly and paying attention to how their breathing works without actually trying to alter it at all.
tldr - it's linked to relief in several conditions
most of my info (prolly all of it tbh) comes from Dr K's lectures at healthygamer.gg - full disclosure, i don't work for them, i don't get paid by them, they don't know i exist but i am a member who has worked through a couple of their courses. They also have a youtube channel if you want an opportunity to check out some of the info for free.