I live in Seattle and adored playing TLOU2 in my home city. Was a total trip playing set pieces in areas where I used to work downtown.
I could get nitpicky about a few areas that didn’t really make sense (and I’m still not really sure where the Seraphite camp was in act three given geography or what our actual aquarium looks like inside) but given how much I enjoyed the game I didn’t really care.
The Seattle Aquarium is amazing, you should definitely give it a visit. It's not even that expensive. They have a little tide pool "petting zoo" with all sorts of cool critters with interesting bodies. I moved out of Seattle and I definitely miss the aquarium.
They also do this thing in the summers where they send folks out to the local beaches to educate people about all the stuff you can find there. It's really cool! Going on until the end of July!
The demo for CoD:MW3 [0] had a combat mission in and around the New York Stock Exchange.
As someone who worked in that area for many years AND worked on the technology side of finance, it was def a "trip" to be playing a FPS set in those neighborhoods.
In theory, the Seraphite island is supposed to be Queen Anne + Magnolia after flooding separates them from the mainland. But you can read lots of internet posts talking about the issues with that, like https://www.reddit.com/r/lastofuspart2/comments/1kzicba/figu... .
Magnolia used to be an island in Puget Sound. They dumped fill into the area of Seattle we now call Interbay to connect it to the mainland where Queen Anne is.
It doesn’t make sense for Queen Anne to be an island, it is connected by a ridge to the rest of the mainland. The topography doesn’t support that notion.
The Last of Us Part II is an incredible experience, I'm happy there's still a thriving fan community doing stuff like this. I appreciate how detailed this guide is, when I visit Seattle I'll definitely try it out.
Awesome doc. I've taken some pictures of real life in comparison to the game, but not to the extreme level you have. Any fans of the game who wants to visit Seattle this summer, this is the doc for you!
In Abby Day 1, I'm pretty sure she goes through the Home Depot on 1st Ave and spends some time going through SODO. Not sure where that building with the boat is. That part seems missing from your doc.
Also, you do see the Space Needle pretty closely on the Seraphite island. In real life the Space Needle and the TV station (where the WLF people are strung up) are right next to each other. In the game, not so much.
Thank you! I especially appreciate the detailed feedback.
I definitely thought about putting in Home Depot. The problem is that, according to Begeal's map ( https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer?mid=1pcItdmVeC6Rj24... ), which I almost always agree with, Abby's around 5th Ave. and Main St. at that point. I haven't doublechecked that location myself in game recently, but looking at a playthrough, the FOB appears to be almost directly east, and I'm pretty sure that was meant to be Harborview. This roughly tracks with what Begeal shows on their map.
That's pretty far away from Home Depot in SoDo, which is a little ways south of both stadiums, and here in the game you actually seem to be north of the stadiums by this point. Also, as you exit in the game, the garden center seems to be on the northwest corner of the store, not the northeast, and the parking lot seems different too. Given that the game has generic stores all the time that don't exist in real life, I'm inclined to say "not quite close enough" personally. But I should put all this in the document for people to judge on their own, so thank you for prompting me to do that! I'll add it in a minute.
I thought so too re: the Space Needle on Seraphite Island. But I tried to take pictures every time I saw it appear, and I could never get a good shot. (And I really tried!) If you know of a good screenshot online, though, I'll be happy to include it and credit the original source.
EDIT: Oh, and yeah, the Space Needle definitely is not in the right place in the game at least some of the time, which the TV station in the game (and the guide) makes obvious.
Thanks for the insight. I'm glad you thought the Home Depot store and your interpretation makes sense.
I don't have a good save, but starting at the 28:43 mark in this YT video there is some dialog about heading towards the Space Needle. 28:53 shows it looming large.
I visited Snoqualmie Lower Falls with a friend a few years ago and had this weird feeling I’d seen the place before… and then it hit me: it was clearly modelled in the game.
(It’s a bit of a drive to get there but so worth it.)
A significant amount of the locations in the show are actually in Vancouver, they even used some SkyTrain Mk1 cars for the train zombie fight scene underground
The Last of Us Part II is a very marmite game - people either love it or hate it. Personally I didn't like the direction the story went down even if the gameplay and the graphics were amazing I was left cold. However I do respect that the story itself was pretty original and was catering to female/lgtb audiences (that's cool). Just not my thing.
It really wasn't, it just had a lesbian protagonist. There are still many prominent sympathetic male characters with agency. Plenty of women enjoy action movies targeted towards men, I always find it confusing when men feel they can't enjoy media with a woman in it.
Respectfully I don't agree with you. I do think that part 2 massively changed the story to one where it catered to female/lgtb audiences. Examples:
1. Ellie and her girlfriend
2. Abby (who I really wasn't sure if they were trans or just a very butch woman (turned out to be the later)
3. Abby's male forest friend (who turns out to be a trans-man).
I have no problem with game companies creating a range of stories (in fact I fully support it) but it was very much a game for female/lgtb audiences. I do also think that the difference in tone between part 1 and 2 was quite striking.
Personally I do think it was a very bold creative direction but I know I will not play part 3 - its not a series that interests me anymore. But that's just an opinon.
Respectfully I am not saying that, you are making that claim.
TLOU part 2 in my view was very different in tone to part 1. I didn't enjoy the story. This is an opinion.
The only examples you give of it 'catering to female and LGBT audiences' are the existence of some female and LGBT characters.
Also, Abby is just a regular cis heterosexual woman, and there is never any indication that she might be otherwise. I can't really see how the mere existence of a straight cis female character in a game could signal very much about its intended audience.
Respectfully I don't agree.
I didn't enjoy the story - so there's that (again just an opinion).
I literally thought Abby was a trans woman she was so muscular (and so have plenty of other gamers). She then later teams up with a transman.
What's interesting is how you portray Abby vs how I and a lot of others saw here (a massive hulk that was kind of a woman but kind of something else). Note I am talking about the video game.
Ellie and her girlfriend were very alike and there wasn't an interesting contrast between them. The lesbian element seemed very played up. I also didn't find her interesting enough to want to play as her. That's not to say all women characters are not appealing. Ellie just wasn't likeable in the game.
Hence... I do think that while there certainly a lot of over reaction from some men about the game. There are also some legitimate points that left wing types refuse to see (see above). There is a ton of other examples I could give on this.
But honestly part 2 was a lame story (for me). We can agree to disagree. That's ok.
As you probably know, the misconception that Abby was trans was fed by online commentary made before the game was released, when people had just seen the trailer and only knew that there was a trans character in the game. No-one who actually plays the game would get the impression that Abby is trans. For all that you play up Abby’s physique, I’m sure you’re perfectly well aware that cis women can have big muscles and that trans women don’t usually spend hours at the gym developing physical traits that would be perceived as masculine. But for some reason you’re repeating these nonsense complaints made years ago by people who hadn’t even played the game.
Your only specific complaint about Ellie and her girlfriend is that they’re lesbians. And you keep mentioning the fact that the game has some LGBTQ characters as if that in itself is some kind of gotcha that proves your point (“she then teams up with a trans man”). I’m not trans but I don’t feel that a game is any less aimed at me just because one of the characters is trans. Why on Earth would I?
You’re obviously entitled to have whatever subjective reaction you have to the game or the characters. But you chose to frame your reaction primarily in terms of the LGBT themes in the game, and that’s the part of your comment I’m responding to.
I played the game and didn't read any online stories about the game and experienced Abby as trans for a very long time into the game. I wasn't influenced by anyone. Her sexuality/gender was very unclear to me (this is about the video game).
There is no gotcha attempts in any of my writing (honestly).
I do think Abby (hyper muscular seemed trans), her transmale friend, Ellie having no interesting gravity and being a lesbian and her girlfriend being uninteresting and long romantic scenes of the two of them, all back up my perspective. But it's just an opinion.
What's undeniable is that these characters are a stark contrast to the original game. Naughty dog took the feel of the game in a very different direction.
I also know you will dismiss my viewpoint and insist I'm not seeing it "correctly". I will be strawmanned, my experience denied, and my opinions explained away.
But as I also said I have no problem with people making a diverse range of games.
TLOU2 is a very marmite game - and a lot of people loved it and a lot of people didn't like it. And the people it appeals to clearly is different from part 1. I appreciate you disagree.
Not sure why you are doubling down on this weird claim that Abby “seems trans”. Apart from that, you’re just making vague criticisms that characters “lack gravity”, etc. The only specific thing you don’t like about them is that they’re LGBT. Repeating over and over again that the game has (gasp!) a lesbian couple in it isn’t going to actually substantiate your claim that it’s not aimed to appeal to straight men.
Huh? Lara Croft, female Shepherd ( that is how I played it anyway ), Bayonetta all featured female protagonists. The difference between then and current crop and the games were enjoyable to its audience.
I personally disliked 2nd last of us, but that it is because, unlike the first one, it was missing something from the original. I absolutely disliked the 2nd act as the former antagonist despite understanding the need to include their portion of the story in the narrative.
I am lukewarm towards the end message despite it, oddly, aligning with my own personal views. It felt it was preachy.
And that, I think, some find off-putting. It is supposed to be entertainment.
Hell, Wick just released Ballerina that features strong female protagonist and.. people don't hate as much as other forced entries. I have theories as to why, but those, I think, can only derail this thread.
But Lara Croft and Bayonetta were made for the male audience. They were very palatable to males because that was their purpose especially visual wise. I don't think it's very representative of actual women and their experience.
> But Lara Croft and Bayonetta were made for the male audience.
That isn't really true, well at least in not the way you are implying. In both circumstances the motivations in development of the characters were to do something a bit different.
> Lead graphic artist Toby Gard went through about five designs before arriving at the character's final appearance. He initially envisioned a male lead character with a whip and a hat. Core Design co-founder Jeremy Smith characterised Gard's initial design as derivative of Indiana Jones and asked for more originality. Gard decided that a female character would work better from a design standpoint. He also cited Virtua Fighter as an influence; Gard noticed that while watching people play the game, players selected one of the two available female characters in the game almost every match he saw. Gard expressed a desire to counter stereotypical female characters, which he has characterised as "bimbos" or "dominatrix" types. Smith was sceptical of a female lead at first because few contemporary games featured them. He came to regard a female lead as a great hook and put faith in Gard's idea. Inspired by pop artist Neneh Cherry and comic book character Tank Girl, Gard experimented with different designs, including "sociopathic blonds, muscle women, flat topped hip-hopsters and a Nazi-like militant in a baseball cap". He settled on a tough South American latina woman with a braid named Laura Cruz.
Similarly with Bayonetta. The guy had made a bunch of games with Male Protagonists and fancied a change by the sounds of it.
> Given the suggestion to create another action game by producer Yusuke Hashimoto, project director Hideki Kamiya decided to create a female lead, having felt he had already done all that could be done with male protagonists. To this end, he told character designer Mari Shimazaki to create her with three traits: a female lead, a modern witch, and to use four guns.
It very much "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when designing characters because someone is going to criticise you for something or other and assume the worst reasons why you did it.
There's a very loud minority of people who think anything with a female or LGBTQ character in it is "woke-washed" or whatever, and apparently have tons of time to complain about it on social media. There's apparently entire subreddits dedicated to slagging on apparently "woke" media that has a GiIIiRRlllLL in it (eEEEeeeWWW!). People need a life.
If you have a fictional series/universe it is important it is internally consistent. Most people use fantasy/science fiction as a form of escapism. They don't want to be reminded about stuff in the real world while trying to escape it.
What frequently is perceived (rightly or wrongly) by fans of a particular franchise is that Female/LGBTQ characters are inserted into places where it doesn't make sense to fill quotas. People generally don't have problems with the characters being female or LGBTQ if the character is charismatic and it doesn't break the internal consistency of the Universe.
The reason why people are vocal is because they've heavily invest their time into something and when it fundamentally changes they feel like they've had the proverbial rug pulled from under them.
> Female/LGBTQ characters are inserted into places where it doesn't make sense to fill quotas
Every case of "ruined by woke" I have seen ultimately just boils down to bad writing, with people blaming "woke" for it when, well, it's just shitty writing. If you ignore the woke stuff and look more broadly usually the whole thing is at best mediocre.
Also sci-fi, fantasy, and horror have always been "woke." Star Trek was one of the first popular shows to prominently feature black characters in important roles and has always lampooned racism and other kinds of bigotry. Night of The Living Dead is pretty easy to see as a racism allegory, or at least it contains one as a sub-plot. Star Wars had an evil empire that was transparently a mix of Nazis and arrogant condescending colonialists. Alien was one of the first huge films I can recall to have a super competent female action hero with skills like engineering who didn't need any help from a man. The Expanse depicts a society that's so post-gender-mattering you don't even notice it, it's just the way it is (probably a good example of good writing in this regard). Etc.
> Every case of "ruined by woke" I have seen ultimately just boils down to bad writing, with people blaming "woke" for it when, well, it's just shitty writing. If you ignore the woke stuff and look more broadly usually the whole thing is at best mediocre.
No not really. Claiming this is a hand waving away legit criticism. Fans/Superfans have legitimate criticism of how it breaks the in franchise universes. Constructive Criticism has been claimed to be racism/sexist/homophobia.
> Also sci-fi, fantasy, and horror have always been "woke." Star Trek was one of the first popular shows to prominently feature black characters in important roles and has always lampooned racism and other kinds of bigotry. Night of The Living Dead is pretty easy to see as a racism allegory, or at least it contains one as a sub-plot. Star Wars had an evil empire that was transparently a mix of Nazis and arrogant condescending colonialists. Alien was one of the first huge films I can recall to have a super competent female action hero with skills like engineering who didn't need any help from a man. The Expanse depicts a society that's so post-gender-mattering you don't even notice it, it's just the way it is (probably a good example of good writing in this regard). Etc.
No they haven't. It so annoying when people point to some ideas that were slightly progressive at the time being an example of it always being "woke". It is quite honestly tiresome.
None of the examples you have given are what people refer to as "woke" today anyway.
Star Trek was certainly progressive, no argument there. But progressive != woke. When people use "woke" as a pejorative they mean extreme left-wing politics that is bordering on insane. Star Trek TNG was progressive, but none of the politics were seen as extreme even at the time of release.
Alien (like Terminator) were very well done horror movies. They worked because women are seen as traditionally vulnerable. It a well known trope in horror movies.
Also there have been femme fatales and heroines in movies well before Alien. I've seen it in a silent Japanese Martial Arts movie from the 1930s where the Heroine avengers her friend who was raped after going to Samurai master (can't remember the name of the film though).
Heroines didn't just pop into existence sometime after 1960.
> The Expanse depicts a society that's so post-gender-mattering you don't even notice it, it's just the way it is (probably a good example of good writing in this regard). Etc.
Never seen it, probably won't now. If a piece of media is going to pretend that someone's sex isn't important to at least some aspect of their character, than it is bad writing. The fact that the show had to be saved by a Billionaire, tells me that it probably wasn't any good in the first place.
>Star Trek TNG was progressive, but none of the politics were seen as extreme even at the time of release.
Season 5, Episode 17 features a genderless species that enforces a type of conversion therapy on any member of the species that believes they do have a gender. It's very thinly veiled, if you could consider it veiled at all.
I think I would agree that TNG's politics weren't considered extreme at the time. However, it's easy to believe that some themes the show touches on would be considered "woke" today.
> I think I would agree that TNG's politics weren't considered extreme at the time.
They would be considered more extreme by today's right than they were in the 1990s. If that came out today it would be woke gender ideology propaganda or something. But today's right is trying to low key rehabilitate Hitler.
Yeah, I think a lot of that's just bad writing. Changing things for TV/film is common, but if you do it badly or ham-fistedly it's bad writing.
The Expanse is great. The show has uneven production quality if you look closely but the acting and writing are good and that matters more than VFX or sets. Definitely a fun watch. The books are better, but a lot of the detail in the books would be way more expensive to film properly (like more realistic space sequences or the Belters with their altered physiology).
I loved the Uncharted games and have always thought that the first level of TLOU:PI is one of best set-piece intros in gaming history, up there with FFVII's "Bombing Run". If you suspect that this is me buttering you up for a takedown, you'd be correct. I have some major issues with TLOU.
Like a lot of modern zombie media, it eschews the genre's initial thrust towards satire of race/class issues to instead play them straight, presenting a survivalist power fantasy that edges a little too close to colonialist sympathies. The admitted beauty of its settings actually makes this issue worse: players are supposed to admire the despoiled wilderness, cities and towns rendered bucolic via violent depopulation. This is only broken by the continued clashing of human/formerly human fighters and soldiers; there are still too many people.
Finding out that one of PII's subplots was meant to be an allegory of the Israel/Palestine conflict made things click hard, especially remembering how PI's development difficulties (famously, Amy Hennig being forced to lead a push to force Neil Druckmann to change the original plan to make Clickers female-only) dovetailed "grossly" with the eventual story (one where almost every prominent female character is killed brutally on-screen). What was supposed to be a thoughtful exploration of human nature, as literary as it was interactive, turned out to be just another [redacted] [redacted] power fantasy along the lines of Call of Duty. Maybe worse, for the pretense.
My biggest beef with it by far was the lack of additional storytelling of the infection.
Gameplay was fun, graphics on PS5 were excellent. The infection is a character all by itself and it was basically completely neglected. This bothered me because it was such a central part of the first game.
Another game that actually did this well, Days Gone, will sadly never get a sequel.
Yeah I generally have zero interest in anything that caters to a female audience. Usually the motivations and outcomes are the exact opposite of what I tend to look forward to in movies/games in that case.
Sheesh, that's a bummer. I figured Google Docs would do fine with this, but maybe not. Let me know if it continues to not work, and I'll investigate other ways to host. Open to suggestions!
Thank you! That means a lot to me. I've been here in Seattle almost 10 years, but I feel like I still have so much to learn about this city. Making this guide taught me a lot!
I will get downvoted for this, but note that many of these locations are... a bit rugged. Probably best to avoid this tour at night unless you have a large party and to be careful using your phones.
I mention in the guide that you should do it during the day for best results, so in general I'm with you on that (and the guide backtracks after Macy's to avoid 3rd, on purpose). But I will say that I've been walking all around downtown / ID / Pioneer Square / Belltown for a number of years now, and I've never felt unsafe, though there are plenty of unpleasantries (yelling, drug use, people walking erratically, etc.) I even walked through 12th and Jackson today, and it's not great, but I didn't feel unsafe, either.
> for a number of years now, and I've never felt unsafe,
do you happen to be a male? it's hard to think about how a female would feel in a situation if that is true. it wasn't something that I fully considered until much later in life. having a daughter will suddenly slap you in the face with those kinds of realizations
I am male, and I agree that it's definitely to important to keep that in mind. I definitely believe that it's not the same for me as it is for women. But I will also say that I've been living in my current location with my female partner for over 7 years, and we often walk together, though sometimes she walks on her own too of course. I just asked her if she ever felt unsafe either, and she said "no".
The commercialization and exploitation of this game made it basically unplayable for me. I’m hoping they won’t do the same with Uncharted since I’ve yet to play the last sequel.
I want the games I play to be an escapism. By proliferating them in media further it destroys that for me, because it’s now everywhere and no longer an escape. For many of us growing up, and in learning to code and build shit, escape from the “real world” was a cornerstone etched with bad experiences.
If you want to make a movie, make a movie. Don’t make a game and then make a movie about it and splatter posters and billboards all over about it.
> Fun games but nothing to them beyond superficial pleasure.
I think that describes over 95% of video games!
If you’re playing a game looking for super deep meaning, you won’t find many.
I also disagree with your point, uncharted 4 had a whole storyline about two orphans helping each other survive, it’s actually a beautiful story. There’s messed up parents, betrayal, spousal drama, and an entire storyline dedicated to pirates… being pirates.
If anything it’s one of the games that disagrees with your point entirely!
I live in Seattle and adored playing TLOU2 in my home city. Was a total trip playing set pieces in areas where I used to work downtown.
I could get nitpicky about a few areas that didn’t really make sense (and I’m still not really sure where the Seraphite camp was in act three given geography or what our actual aquarium looks like inside) but given how much I enjoyed the game I didn’t really care.
Same!
With the author's blessing, I took the doc's content and converted into into a more usable website: https://lastofus.posix.love
Would love to hear feedback if anyone has any!
The Seattle Aquarium is amazing, you should definitely give it a visit. It's not even that expensive. They have a little tide pool "petting zoo" with all sorts of cool critters with interesting bodies. I moved out of Seattle and I definitely miss the aquarium.
They also do this thing in the summers where they send folks out to the local beaches to educate people about all the stuff you can find there. It's really cool! Going on until the end of July!
The demo for CoD:MW3 [0] had a combat mission in and around the New York Stock Exchange.
As someone who worked in that area for many years AND worked on the technology side of finance, it was def a "trip" to be playing a FPS set in those neighborhoods.
0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Nqfnngxm0
In theory, the Seraphite island is supposed to be Queen Anne + Magnolia after flooding separates them from the mainland. But you can read lots of internet posts talking about the issues with that, like https://www.reddit.com/r/lastofuspart2/comments/1kzicba/figu... .
Magnolia used to be an island in Puget Sound. They dumped fill into the area of Seattle we now call Interbay to connect it to the mainland where Queen Anne is.
It doesn’t make sense for Queen Anne to be an island, it is connected by a ridge to the rest of the mainland. The topography doesn’t support that notion.
Thanks for the info about Magnolia and Interbay. I did not know that!
The Last of Us Part II is an incredible experience, I'm happy there's still a thriving fan community doing stuff like this. I appreciate how detailed this guide is, when I visit Seattle I'll definitely try it out.
FYI, I made this tour in case anyone has any questions (or corrections, etc.)
Awesome doc. I've taken some pictures of real life in comparison to the game, but not to the extreme level you have. Any fans of the game who wants to visit Seattle this summer, this is the doc for you!
In Abby Day 1, I'm pretty sure she goes through the Home Depot on 1st Ave and spends some time going through SODO. Not sure where that building with the boat is. That part seems missing from your doc.
Also, you do see the Space Needle pretty closely on the Seraphite island. In real life the Space Needle and the TV station (where the WLF people are strung up) are right next to each other. In the game, not so much.
Thank you! I especially appreciate the detailed feedback.
I definitely thought about putting in Home Depot. The problem is that, according to Begeal's map ( https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer?mid=1pcItdmVeC6Rj24... ), which I almost always agree with, Abby's around 5th Ave. and Main St. at that point. I haven't doublechecked that location myself in game recently, but looking at a playthrough, the FOB appears to be almost directly east, and I'm pretty sure that was meant to be Harborview. This roughly tracks with what Begeal shows on their map.
That's pretty far away from Home Depot in SoDo, which is a little ways south of both stadiums, and here in the game you actually seem to be north of the stadiums by this point. Also, as you exit in the game, the garden center seems to be on the northwest corner of the store, not the northeast, and the parking lot seems different too. Given that the game has generic stores all the time that don't exist in real life, I'm inclined to say "not quite close enough" personally. But I should put all this in the document for people to judge on their own, so thank you for prompting me to do that! I'll add it in a minute.
I thought so too re: the Space Needle on Seraphite Island. But I tried to take pictures every time I saw it appear, and I could never get a good shot. (And I really tried!) If you know of a good screenshot online, though, I'll be happy to include it and credit the original source.
EDIT: Oh, and yeah, the Space Needle definitely is not in the right place in the game at least some of the time, which the TV station in the game (and the guide) makes obvious.
Thanks for the insight. I'm glad you thought the Home Depot store and your interpretation makes sense.
I don't have a good save, but starting at the 28:43 mark in this YT video there is some dialog about heading towards the Space Needle. 28:53 shows it looming large.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htTJFRQxU1U
I think I tried there, and even after brightening / enhancing, I couldn't get much detail. But I'll try it again tonight to be sure. Thanks!
I think you’re missing the power plant/damn: https://maps.app.goo.gl/dy3wfsnHPQDys1Fo6?g_st=com.google.ma...
I visited Snoqualmie Lower Falls with a friend a few years ago and had this weird feeling I’d seen the place before… and then it hit me: it was clearly modelled in the game.
(It’s a bit of a drive to get there but so worth it.)
Related but filming locations for season one of the last of us: https://www.travelalberta.com/articles/explore-alberta-locat...
A significant amount of the locations in the show are actually in Vancouver, they even used some SkyTrain Mk1 cars for the train zombie fight scene underground
It's mentioned in the doc that this is for the game, not the show.
Being in Vancouver everyone's made the "It was filmed on East Hastings" line
Very cool!
Obviously, people know, but for the others: occassionally someone posts the actual locations to compare to the game. Here are some amazing examples:
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/WK6zoyB27r
https://www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/s/uCMUMB50qA
The Last of Us Part II is a very marmite game - people either love it or hate it. Personally I didn't like the direction the story went down even if the gameplay and the graphics were amazing I was left cold. However I do respect that the story itself was pretty original and was catering to female/lgtb audiences (that's cool). Just not my thing.
You mean that the central romantic relationship was between two women? Or that the main action characters are female?
Does that mean you'd describe 70-90% of other visual storytelling as "catering to male straight audiences" ?
I mean, kinda?
In what ways was the story catering to female/lgtb audiences? I haven't played it, but I played the first one.
It really wasn't, it just had a lesbian protagonist. There are still many prominent sympathetic male characters with agency. Plenty of women enjoy action movies targeted towards men, I always find it confusing when men feel they can't enjoy media with a woman in it.
Respectfully I don't agree with you. I do think that part 2 massively changed the story to one where it catered to female/lgtb audiences. Examples: 1. Ellie and her girlfriend 2. Abby (who I really wasn't sure if they were trans or just a very butch woman (turned out to be the later) 3. Abby's male forest friend (who turns out to be a trans-man).
I have no problem with game companies creating a range of stories (in fact I fully support it) but it was very much a game for female/lgtb audiences. I do also think that the difference in tone between part 1 and 2 was quite striking.
Personally I do think it was a very bold creative direction but I know I will not play part 3 - its not a series that interests me anymore. But that's just an opinon.
It seems like you’re just saying that any game with female and/or LGBT characters isn’t suitable for a straight male audience.
Respectfully I am not saying that, you are making that claim. TLOU part 2 in my view was very different in tone to part 1. I didn't enjoy the story. This is an opinion.
The only examples you give of it 'catering to female and LGBT audiences' are the existence of some female and LGBT characters.
Also, Abby is just a regular cis heterosexual woman, and there is never any indication that she might be otherwise. I can't really see how the mere existence of a straight cis female character in a game could signal very much about its intended audience.
Respectfully I don't agree. I didn't enjoy the story - so there's that (again just an opinion).
I literally thought Abby was a trans woman she was so muscular (and so have plenty of other gamers). She then later teams up with a transman. What's interesting is how you portray Abby vs how I and a lot of others saw here (a massive hulk that was kind of a woman but kind of something else). Note I am talking about the video game.
Ellie and her girlfriend were very alike and there wasn't an interesting contrast between them. The lesbian element seemed very played up. I also didn't find her interesting enough to want to play as her. That's not to say all women characters are not appealing. Ellie just wasn't likeable in the game.
Hence... I do think that while there certainly a lot of over reaction from some men about the game. There are also some legitimate points that left wing types refuse to see (see above). There is a ton of other examples I could give on this.
But honestly part 2 was a lame story (for me). We can agree to disagree. That's ok.
As you probably know, the misconception that Abby was trans was fed by online commentary made before the game was released, when people had just seen the trailer and only knew that there was a trans character in the game. No-one who actually plays the game would get the impression that Abby is trans. For all that you play up Abby’s physique, I’m sure you’re perfectly well aware that cis women can have big muscles and that trans women don’t usually spend hours at the gym developing physical traits that would be perceived as masculine. But for some reason you’re repeating these nonsense complaints made years ago by people who hadn’t even played the game.
Your only specific complaint about Ellie and her girlfriend is that they’re lesbians. And you keep mentioning the fact that the game has some LGBTQ characters as if that in itself is some kind of gotcha that proves your point (“she then teams up with a trans man”). I’m not trans but I don’t feel that a game is any less aimed at me just because one of the characters is trans. Why on Earth would I?
You’re obviously entitled to have whatever subjective reaction you have to the game or the characters. But you chose to frame your reaction primarily in terms of the LGBT themes in the game, and that’s the part of your comment I’m responding to.
I played the game and didn't read any online stories about the game and experienced Abby as trans for a very long time into the game. I wasn't influenced by anyone. Her sexuality/gender was very unclear to me (this is about the video game).
There is no gotcha attempts in any of my writing (honestly).
I do think Abby (hyper muscular seemed trans), her transmale friend, Ellie having no interesting gravity and being a lesbian and her girlfriend being uninteresting and long romantic scenes of the two of them, all back up my perspective. But it's just an opinion.
What's undeniable is that these characters are a stark contrast to the original game. Naughty dog took the feel of the game in a very different direction.
I also know you will dismiss my viewpoint and insist I'm not seeing it "correctly". I will be strawmanned, my experience denied, and my opinions explained away.
But as I also said I have no problem with people making a diverse range of games.
TLOU2 is a very marmite game - and a lot of people loved it and a lot of people didn't like it. And the people it appeals to clearly is different from part 1. I appreciate you disagree.
Best wishes
>hyper muscular seemed trans
What about trans women is hyper muscular to you? I'm asking genuinely, have you ever interacted with a trans woman in real life?
Not sure why you are doubling down on this weird claim that Abby “seems trans”. Apart from that, you’re just making vague criticisms that characters “lack gravity”, etc. The only specific thing you don’t like about them is that they’re LGBT. Repeating over and over again that the game has (gasp!) a lesbian couple in it isn’t going to actually substantiate your claim that it’s not aimed to appeal to straight men.
>I literally thought Abby was a trans woman she was so muscular
Do you think that trans women are muscular? How many trans women have you met in real life?
>The lesbian element seemed very played up.
Can you expand on what you mean by this? Do you have any examples of games with lesbian elements that aren't "played up"?
Huh? Lara Croft, female Shepherd ( that is how I played it anyway ), Bayonetta all featured female protagonists. The difference between then and current crop and the games were enjoyable to its audience.
I personally disliked 2nd last of us, but that it is because, unlike the first one, it was missing something from the original. I absolutely disliked the 2nd act as the former antagonist despite understanding the need to include their portion of the story in the narrative.
I am lukewarm towards the end message despite it, oddly, aligning with my own personal views. It felt it was preachy.
And that, I think, some find off-putting. It is supposed to be entertainment.
Hell, Wick just released Ballerina that features strong female protagonist and.. people don't hate as much as other forced entries. I have theories as to why, but those, I think, can only derail this thread.
But Lara Croft and Bayonetta were made for the male audience. They were very palatable to males because that was their purpose especially visual wise. I don't think it's very representative of actual women and their experience.
> But Lara Croft and Bayonetta were made for the male audience.
That isn't really true, well at least in not the way you are implying. In both circumstances the motivations in development of the characters were to do something a bit different.
> Lead graphic artist Toby Gard went through about five designs before arriving at the character's final appearance. He initially envisioned a male lead character with a whip and a hat. Core Design co-founder Jeremy Smith characterised Gard's initial design as derivative of Indiana Jones and asked for more originality. Gard decided that a female character would work better from a design standpoint. He also cited Virtua Fighter as an influence; Gard noticed that while watching people play the game, players selected one of the two available female characters in the game almost every match he saw. Gard expressed a desire to counter stereotypical female characters, which he has characterised as "bimbos" or "dominatrix" types. Smith was sceptical of a female lead at first because few contemporary games featured them. He came to regard a female lead as a great hook and put faith in Gard's idea. Inspired by pop artist Neneh Cherry and comic book character Tank Girl, Gard experimented with different designs, including "sociopathic blonds, muscle women, flat topped hip-hopsters and a Nazi-like militant in a baseball cap". He settled on a tough South American latina woman with a braid named Laura Cruz.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lara_Croft
Similarly with Bayonetta. The guy had made a bunch of games with Male Protagonists and fancied a change by the sounds of it.
> Given the suggestion to create another action game by producer Yusuke Hashimoto, project director Hideki Kamiya decided to create a female lead, having felt he had already done all that could be done with male protagonists. To this end, he told character designer Mari Shimazaki to create her with three traits: a female lead, a modern witch, and to use four guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayonetta_(character)
It very much "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when designing characters because someone is going to criticise you for something or other and assume the worst reasons why you did it.
There's a very loud minority of people who think anything with a female or LGBTQ character in it is "woke-washed" or whatever, and apparently have tons of time to complain about it on social media. There's apparently entire subreddits dedicated to slagging on apparently "woke" media that has a GiIIiRRlllLL in it (eEEEeeeWWW!). People need a life.
Or we just go back to having separate media directed at boys and girls because the current paradigm doesn’t work.
Reminder: You can draw a straight line from Gamergate to Trump
Reminder: it has been over a decade ago...
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/729/316/993...
You are misstating the complaint.
If you have a fictional series/universe it is important it is internally consistent. Most people use fantasy/science fiction as a form of escapism. They don't want to be reminded about stuff in the real world while trying to escape it.
What frequently is perceived (rightly or wrongly) by fans of a particular franchise is that Female/LGBTQ characters are inserted into places where it doesn't make sense to fill quotas. People generally don't have problems with the characters being female or LGBTQ if the character is charismatic and it doesn't break the internal consistency of the Universe.
The reason why people are vocal is because they've heavily invest their time into something and when it fundamentally changes they feel like they've had the proverbial rug pulled from under them.
> Female/LGBTQ characters are inserted into places where it doesn't make sense to fill quotas
Every case of "ruined by woke" I have seen ultimately just boils down to bad writing, with people blaming "woke" for it when, well, it's just shitty writing. If you ignore the woke stuff and look more broadly usually the whole thing is at best mediocre.
Also sci-fi, fantasy, and horror have always been "woke." Star Trek was one of the first popular shows to prominently feature black characters in important roles and has always lampooned racism and other kinds of bigotry. Night of The Living Dead is pretty easy to see as a racism allegory, or at least it contains one as a sub-plot. Star Wars had an evil empire that was transparently a mix of Nazis and arrogant condescending colonialists. Alien was one of the first huge films I can recall to have a super competent female action hero with skills like engineering who didn't need any help from a man. The Expanse depicts a society that's so post-gender-mattering you don't even notice it, it's just the way it is (probably a good example of good writing in this regard). Etc.
> Every case of "ruined by woke" I have seen ultimately just boils down to bad writing, with people blaming "woke" for it when, well, it's just shitty writing. If you ignore the woke stuff and look more broadly usually the whole thing is at best mediocre.
No not really. Claiming this is a hand waving away legit criticism. Fans/Superfans have legitimate criticism of how it breaks the in franchise universes. Constructive Criticism has been claimed to be racism/sexist/homophobia.
> Also sci-fi, fantasy, and horror have always been "woke." Star Trek was one of the first popular shows to prominently feature black characters in important roles and has always lampooned racism and other kinds of bigotry. Night of The Living Dead is pretty easy to see as a racism allegory, or at least it contains one as a sub-plot. Star Wars had an evil empire that was transparently a mix of Nazis and arrogant condescending colonialists. Alien was one of the first huge films I can recall to have a super competent female action hero with skills like engineering who didn't need any help from a man. The Expanse depicts a society that's so post-gender-mattering you don't even notice it, it's just the way it is (probably a good example of good writing in this regard). Etc.
No they haven't. It so annoying when people point to some ideas that were slightly progressive at the time being an example of it always being "woke". It is quite honestly tiresome.
None of the examples you have given are what people refer to as "woke" today anyway.
Star Trek was certainly progressive, no argument there. But progressive != woke. When people use "woke" as a pejorative they mean extreme left-wing politics that is bordering on insane. Star Trek TNG was progressive, but none of the politics were seen as extreme even at the time of release.
Alien (like Terminator) were very well done horror movies. They worked because women are seen as traditionally vulnerable. It a well known trope in horror movies.
Also there have been femme fatales and heroines in movies well before Alien. I've seen it in a silent Japanese Martial Arts movie from the 1930s where the Heroine avengers her friend who was raped after going to Samurai master (can't remember the name of the film though).
Heroines didn't just pop into existence sometime after 1960.
> The Expanse depicts a society that's so post-gender-mattering you don't even notice it, it's just the way it is (probably a good example of good writing in this regard). Etc.
Never seen it, probably won't now. If a piece of media is going to pretend that someone's sex isn't important to at least some aspect of their character, than it is bad writing. The fact that the show had to be saved by a Billionaire, tells me that it probably wasn't any good in the first place.
>Star Trek TNG was progressive, but none of the politics were seen as extreme even at the time of release.
Season 5, Episode 17 features a genderless species that enforces a type of conversion therapy on any member of the species that believes they do have a gender. It's very thinly veiled, if you could consider it veiled at all.
I think I would agree that TNG's politics weren't considered extreme at the time. However, it's easy to believe that some themes the show touches on would be considered "woke" today.
> I think I would agree that TNG's politics weren't considered extreme at the time.
They would be considered more extreme by today's right than they were in the 1990s. If that came out today it would be woke gender ideology propaganda or something. But today's right is trying to low key rehabilitate Hitler.
Yeah, I think a lot of that's just bad writing. Changing things for TV/film is common, but if you do it badly or ham-fistedly it's bad writing.
The Expanse is great. The show has uneven production quality if you look closely but the acting and writing are good and that matters more than VFX or sets. Definitely a fun watch. The books are better, but a lot of the detail in the books would be way more expensive to film properly (like more realistic space sequences or the Belters with their altered physiology).
I definitely enjoyed Stellar Blade
I loved the Uncharted games and have always thought that the first level of TLOU:PI is one of best set-piece intros in gaming history, up there with FFVII's "Bombing Run". If you suspect that this is me buttering you up for a takedown, you'd be correct. I have some major issues with TLOU.
Like a lot of modern zombie media, it eschews the genre's initial thrust towards satire of race/class issues to instead play them straight, presenting a survivalist power fantasy that edges a little too close to colonialist sympathies. The admitted beauty of its settings actually makes this issue worse: players are supposed to admire the despoiled wilderness, cities and towns rendered bucolic via violent depopulation. This is only broken by the continued clashing of human/formerly human fighters and soldiers; there are still too many people.
Finding out that one of PII's subplots was meant to be an allegory of the Israel/Palestine conflict made things click hard, especially remembering how PI's development difficulties (famously, Amy Hennig being forced to lead a push to force Neil Druckmann to change the original plan to make Clickers female-only) dovetailed "grossly" with the eventual story (one where almost every prominent female character is killed brutally on-screen). What was supposed to be a thoughtful exploration of human nature, as literary as it was interactive, turned out to be just another [redacted] [redacted] power fantasy along the lines of Call of Duty. Maybe worse, for the pretense.
My biggest beef with it by far was the lack of additional storytelling of the infection.
Gameplay was fun, graphics on PS5 were excellent. The infection is a character all by itself and it was basically completely neglected. This bothered me because it was such a central part of the first game.
Another game that actually did this well, Days Gone, will sadly never get a sequel.
Yeah I generally have zero interest in anything that caters to a female audience. Usually the motivations and outcomes are the exact opposite of what I tend to look forward to in movies/games in that case.
EDIT: I can at least read it now w/o the dialog blocking the view.
The doc is getting hammered at the moment, throwing a looped modal dialog. Not sure what the fix is, other than putting it on another host.
Sheesh, that's a bummer. I figured Google Docs would do fine with this, but maybe not. Let me know if it continues to not work, and I'll investigate other ways to host. Open to suggestions!
Yeah, I was surprised by that. I can read it now (with a try again/cancel/dismiss banner at the top).
Anyway, good work on the doc; I found it interesting as a Seattle-area resident.
Thank you! That means a lot to me. I've been here in Seattle almost 10 years, but I feel like I still have so much to learn about this city. Making this guide taught me a lot!
I’ve lived in Seattle 90% of my life and still finding and learning new stuff! It’s an awesome city (So are Portland and Vancouver BC!).
I will get downvoted for this, but note that many of these locations are... a bit rugged. Probably best to avoid this tour at night unless you have a large party and to be careful using your phones.
I mention in the guide that you should do it during the day for best results, so in general I'm with you on that (and the guide backtracks after Macy's to avoid 3rd, on purpose). But I will say that I've been walking all around downtown / ID / Pioneer Square / Belltown for a number of years now, and I've never felt unsafe, though there are plenty of unpleasantries (yelling, drug use, people walking erratically, etc.) I even walked through 12th and Jackson today, and it's not great, but I didn't feel unsafe, either.
> for a number of years now, and I've never felt unsafe,
do you happen to be a male? it's hard to think about how a female would feel in a situation if that is true. it wasn't something that I fully considered until much later in life. having a daughter will suddenly slap you in the face with those kinds of realizations
I am male, and I agree that it's definitely to important to keep that in mind. I definitely believe that it's not the same for me as it is for women. But I will also say that I've been living in my current location with my female partner for over 7 years, and we often walk together, though sometimes she walks on her own too of course. I just asked her if she ever felt unsafe either, and she said "no".
> yelling, drug use, people walking erratically, etc.
People that are not used to that would definitely feel unsafe in that situation.
The commercialization and exploitation of this game made it basically unplayable for me. I’m hoping they won’t do the same with Uncharted since I’ve yet to play the last sequel.
The commercialization of it? It's a AAA video game, it was commercial from the jump! All they did is made a well-received HBO show out of it.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1464335
Awe shit.
>The commercialization and exploitation of this game made it basically unplayable for me.
What are you able to enjoy. What hasnt been exploited and commercialised.
In what ways? How does it detract from the gaming experience?
I want the games I play to be an escapism. By proliferating them in media further it destroys that for me, because it’s now everywhere and no longer an escape. For many of us growing up, and in learning to code and build shit, escape from the “real world” was a cornerstone etched with bad experiences.
If you want to make a movie, make a movie. Don’t make a game and then make a movie about it and splatter posters and billboards all over about it.
The problem is too many normies know about it?
Uncharted is slop for the masses as-is lol. Fun games but nothing to them beyond superficial pleasure.
> Fun games but nothing to them beyond superficial pleasure.
I think that describes over 95% of video games!
If you’re playing a game looking for super deep meaning, you won’t find many.
I also disagree with your point, uncharted 4 had a whole storyline about two orphans helping each other survive, it’s actually a beautiful story. There’s messed up parents, betrayal, spousal drama, and an entire storyline dedicated to pirates… being pirates.
If anything it’s one of the games that disagrees with your point entirely!
Uncharted 4 was barely a game tho
Most good games have an art to their gameplay and storytelling. Uncharted 4 was a movie on rails.
You're not missing much. Just when you've slogged through it and you think you're done you realise you're only half way through.
Such a disappointing game. It's basically one long downer, unlike the first (obvs awesome).
Just wait until GTA the movie lol.
It is called "Scarface".
Push it to the limit! TSCH! TSCH! Walk along the Razor's Edge...