Reading reviews of this type of keyboard is really interesting to me because their use is such a subjective experience. I have found that the glove80 has far and away the most comfortable thumb cluster for my hands as well as the most comfortable positioning for my pinkies.
I couldn’t make the corne variants work because tucking my thumbs hurt. The ergodox is too big. Even a keyboard like the ZSA Voyager just doesn’t fit me right. However, the glove80, running a 40 key layout that I’ve come up with after doing a fair amount of heat mapping my own keystrokes, gets rid of all my hand and wrist discomfort. My only complaint is what a hassle it is to haul around.
The only “wisdom” (hard earned) I would pass along is:
- Make a heat map of your keyboard over a few days to see what keys you need.
- tweak your layout to make it easy and comfortable to get to the keys and key combos you use.
I have a Chocofi (36 key, 3x5 + 3 thumb per half). My complaint with the Cornes is that the keyboard doesn't have enough stagger for where they thumb cluster is positioned. Either the thumb cluster should move out like the ZSA voyager or more stagger is needed like Ferris sweep and most newer boards at a similar size including mine.
I'm curious but not particularly enthusiastic about keywells because I find the biggest improvement with a split keyboard is the tenting. My personal setup uses heavy tenting+tilting (basically half of a square base pyramid split on the square's diagonal) with the keyboard in my lap and my forearms resting on the chair arms locks me into a neutral wrist position without any active muscle effort. Keeping a good wrist position through the entire day instead of just the first half makes a noticeable difference.
Finally, I use the neutral thumb keys for shift on hold but I don't use any other thumb holds because I believe it has stress injury risks[1]. They're used for important but relatively infrequent keys: backspace, enter, tab, esc.
Yeah, I have found it most comfortable to use two keys on each thumb cluster. Space, Enter, Layer 1, Layer 2. I also like how ZSA's thumb cluster it moved out (Keyboardio really did it the best imho), but for some reason the keywell on the glove80 makes it much easier on my pinkies than the ortho layout on the voyager.
How did you find an ideal tent + tilt setup? Whenever I've tried I've wound up with sore wrists or hands, so just gave up. It seems like the glove80 w/out wrist rests does "good enough" so I stopped trying to optimize, even though the temptation remains.
I've seen some members of the erg keyboard community design and print their own pcbs based on their hand dimensions. I just don't have the time for it and fear how far down the rabbit hole I'd wind up if I did.
I had the idea that the best position for long sessions would be the most relaxed one so I put my hands in my lap on top of a lapboard (old Wacom tablet) and tried to put they keyboard halves under my fingers. I cut up a shipping box for the tenting stand. It took me eight iterations with three fresh starts but doesn't take that long with cardboard and tape. Stick the keyboard onto the stand with double sided tape, fill the cardboard pyramid with change for weight, and it's been like that for eight months. I'll come up with a more permanent solution at some point but it's working well so I'm not in a hurry.
The positioning was mostly about getting the wrists straight with the keyboard halves in-plane. The in-plane part was, naturally, the tricky part and that was mostly about getting the pinky corners set and then small adjustments until the index corners felt good. I have it set so perfectly aligned requires me to slightly lift my arms off the armrests which prevents sore spots on the forearms. At rest with the sides of my palms on the lapboard my fingers are off to the side of the keys but I can still type.
> I've seen some members of the erg keyboard community design and print their own pcbs based on their hand dimensions
I follow the reddit community and see those as well. Someone started up a business selling fitted keywell boards (Cyboard) but the general consensus seems to be that the glove80 is good enough. I have some patches on my local ZMK (mostly changing chord detection) but no particular desire to do the hardware side. If I had a 3d printer I might consider it since apparently hand wiring isn't that hard if you have a print to hold the switches.
After developing a wrist pain which made moving my right-hand thumb ache, I discovered the usefulness of reprogramming the home keys to tap (letter) and hold (shift-Ctrl-Alt) on my Ergodox. Also, I shifted Space and Return to the left thumb cluster.
One does indeed not need to use all the keys. Lesson learned!
Others can make more informed recommendations; to the best of my knowledge it's going to depend on your keyboard and what firmware it runs. (There are some os-level heatmappers you can use, too.) When I used a Voyager I used the Heatmap feature in ZSA's keymapp app. When I was using a corne I used Via/Vial to do it. I finally found my way to the glove and used the data from those.
I wish manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards would pay more attention to pointing devices. After all, with modern UIs we have to use the pointer. Having a hand jump to a mouse all the time is, at least, distracting.
Another factor is skeletal symmetry. Reaching for a mouse changes the natural balance of posture. I'm not a doctor, but it cannot be healthy over decades. That's why after many years I'm now using the pointing device with my non-dominant hand most of the time. My dominant hand only takes the mouse when I have to do precise or graphic work. This approach makes my back, neck and shoulders feel better.
And the last major gripe I have with most of ergonomic keyboards is how they misunderstand tactile feedback. They try to make all keys feel the same. Glove80 takes it to the limit with its uniform and flat key shapes and identical switches. I don't think this is helpful. Notice how F and J on most keyboards have bumps. Every key should have a bump, a unique shape, a unique surface texture. I want to subconsciously know I hit the right key.
For me, what has solved definitively the pointing device problem, after experimenting for many years with various mice, trackballs, trackpoints or touchpads, is switching to the use of a stylus on a small Wacom tablet as the pointing device (under Linux).
I use the tablet configured in the "Relative" mode, where it behaves identically to a mouse. The tablet has about the same size or somewhat smaller than a traditional mouse pad.
In comparison with a mouse, holding and moving the very light stylus requires much less force than with a mouse, the hand position is much more comfortable and the speed and accuracy of the movements are much higher.
Because the stylus is extremely light, I can keep it between the fingers while touch-typing with all fingers on the keyboard. Therefore when I alternate between typing and pointing the transitions are faster and more comfortable than with a mouse, because I do not have to grasp the mouse every time.
When I type longer texts, I drop the stylus on the tablet. I configure the stylus so that touching the tablet causes left mouse click and the 2 buttons that are on the stylus cause respectively right mouse click and double left click.
Regarding your complaint about key shapes, many decades ago I had used a high-quality keyboard, with Hall sensors for the keys, and where each key had a different shape and height.
Unfortunately, after assembling my first IBM PC/AT compatible computer, I had to abandon that keyboard, because it was incompatible (it came from some kind of DEC-compatible video terminal). Otherwise, I have no doubt that this keyboard would have still worked finely even today, as it did not have any parts sensitive to wear, unlike modern keyboards.
Svalboard can have various kinds of pointing devices integrated into it, within reach of your fingers without having to change your hand position, but it's a pretty extreme keyboard design even by modern standards.
You reference Kinesis in the article so I assume you've seen the Kinesis Advantage 360? I've been a happy Kinseis Advantage user for two decades, and the 360 is pretty much perfect. It has dedicated keys for activating layers, you can remap and configure on a website using web serial, and it is extremely premium looking/feeling. And of course it's very comfortable without the thumb key problem discussed in this article.
The Kinesis Advantage literally saved my career. I have lived in fear for a long time that the company would go out of business. So every chance I can justify I send them another $400 for their latest keyboard so I help keep them in business and increase my stockpile.
I have had an advantage, advantage pro, advantage 2, and an advantage 360 pro.
The 360 comes close but it’s a miss for me. I really don’t like the omission of the function keys, and the switches feel muddied compared to the ones on the previous advantage keyboards.
If they fixed those two things and added another 1-2 keys to the thumb cluster, I think that would be the ultimate keyboard for me.
I transitioned from a "normal" keyboard to a Glove80 last year. I immediately didn't like using the standard layout, so I switched to Colemak-DH which I've found pretty comfortable.
The thumb clusters are definitely a pain, I find myself only really using the 3 closest buttons one each side. Even then, the closest button on the upper row requires a stretch that gets uncomfortable after a while. It hasn't been bad enough for me to consider trying other keyboards though--the prices are too high for me to feel comfortable buying something I might not like.
To anyone that switches to a split keyboard, I strongly recommend also getting a trackball mouse (I use a Ploopy Adept). It lets you center the keyboard in front of you without needing to stretch too far while manipulating the mouse.
thanks! I'm not convinced I really care about the concavity - I got the Glove80 because it was cheaper for wireless and ZMK seemed like a safer bet than the Dygma custom layout engine. You're happy with that side of things?
I only have the wireless version. The keyboard management software Dygma makes is spectacular, I was quite pleased. It's quite a step up from the janky web editor Moergo provides, requiring downloading a file and then doing a keyboard re-flashing dance.
Have you tried the moonlander, or similar style thumb pads with articulated or more exaggerated angle? Seems to me that the thumb action should be at about 90 degrees to the finger action. I have a fancy keyboard to help with wrist issues, and I think thumb issues will arise next.
I have used splits for a long time. An improvement I swear by for thumb clusters is making the keys farther from me taller. I have no idea how I'd hit them without that. My keyboard is a Keebio Iris [0]. The thumb keys closest to me have relatively low-profile DSA key caps. The keys above them are SA (edit: row 3). I think this is a decent avenue for keyboard customizers to explore to make their thumbs have a better time reaching up a row.
The Glove uses low profile switches though, so I have no idea if different height caps are even possible with those.
profiled keycaps are absolutely possible but I haven't seen any out there. someone wanting that would probably have to 3D print their own, or at least some kind of spacer
No discussion about ergonomics is complete without a mention of the Svalboard[0], a spiritual successor to the DataHand you can actually purchase today.
I'm not affiliated in any way, just a happy user who's career has been saved by the Svalboard when no other ergonomic keyboard could.
I kind of regret my glove80 purchase after getting on the ortholinear ergo bandwagon to replace a microsoft sculpt. It's solidly built, happy to support and I'm using it to type this currently as a sunk cost fallacy... but similar concerns re: the inner thumb clusters being difficult to reach without repositioning palms. I've mapped them as: alt and space on the inner left and alt+space (power toys search) and layer on the inner right with another space on the right closer to my thumb. That's the biggest game changer vs. another keyboard: having backspace accessible with the left thumb and space with the right thumb is amazing. I also cannot reach the bottom outer 2/3 buttons with my pinkies and have 'medium' glove hands. Also for the cost, I was disappointed that one can't individually control/map the RGB LEDs so what is the bloody point of having them.
Glove80 is a decent ready-made product but it's simply too big. From my experience, sofle/silakka/lily58 with tenting solution worked better since they have smaller thumb cluster and surface but still takes advantage of same structure.
The ones I listed are well open sourced and modularized, you can print out parts as you go - trackpad, trackball, tilting pad, joystick whatever you want.
you can remap individual LEDs - it's awkward but there's a community firmware that you can use without ever leaving the web editor. the layout language is also pretty raw but it's doable.
I've usually seen "thumb clusters" used for those style of key layouts, rather than thumb pads.
I've been using some variant of the Kinesis Advantage line for over 10 years - currently the Advantage360, their split board. I used an ergodox for a few years before that.
The Advantages are all 3d curved layouts with thumb clusters like the Maltron, and I haven't had RSI issues since making the move. The 360pro runs ZMK for firmware customization, and the stands do support different tenting angles.
Worth a try if you're looking for a more direct alternative to the Maltron.
> I analysed a full day of my keystrokes with xkbcat, which was very useful: my most frequently pressed keys are not what I would have guessed! For example, I discovered that I type ‘>’ far more often than ‘<’6.
Excellent approach, though rarely used in layout design, at most you'd get frequency distribution of typed text instead of pressed keys
> Both hands need access to each of these modifiers, because using a modifier and typing a key with the same hand often involves painful contortions.
While home row mods is a better solution, another alternative is "sticky" mods that would remove the need to hold, so you can use the same hand without pain
> On a normal keyboard, if I press ‘f’ then ‘g’ I can roll from one to the other and press ‘g’ while ‘f’ still hasn’t been released – ‘fg’ will be sent to the computer. With home row mods, this ends up sending ‘G’.
This might be config issue. With a roll you release F before G (your fingers roll off the first key before rolling off the second), so this should type regular FG in properly configured home row mods instead of just capitalized G.
> The practical effect of this is that ‘f’ isn’t sent to the computer as soon as you press down, but only when you release the key.
Are there implementations that send F immediately, but send backspace to delete F if you hold?
While it's missing the concavity of either the Glove80 or the Maltron, I've been so happy with the Keyboardio's thumb cluster (and palm keys) that I'm more than willing to overlook that regression. The Keyboardio's also got a very nice build, and the wood looks great.
I've heard various online stories, over the years, about how nobody nails the ergonomics quite like Maltron does. Which is amazing given how long they've been about.
I have an old Maltron that I got cheap (many years ago and it was old then!) and it's remarkable how unlike a modern consumer product it was. Thin, vacuum formed plastic, point-to-point soldered wire keyboard matrix. But that classic shape, keys with full sized key caps and travel, etc are all present.
The Kinesis I also have is much more mainstream - it feels more solid and looks more like a consumer product. But I understand it's just not quite as good, ergonomically.
I use a Lily58 split/lightly bowled keyboard and it has been a big improvement in many regards. The thumb cluster is a much different approach to the Glove or Maltron, and I think it would benefit people with shorter thumb reach but might feel cramped for those with more mighty talons.
I do bouldering, and I have broken two of my fingers over the years in cycling accidents, and both are ultimately inconsequential compared using/abusing a bad keyboard. If you are thinking about trying a new keyboard design, and you use a keyboard for at least a few hours a day, it will be money well spent.
The article is interesting. I like the heatmap approach and trying to measure the physical differences between both keyboards. This is putting data behind a feeling and it helps looking for improvement. However for other parts of our body (like when going to the gym), I've been told to stretch as much as to exercise. I find odd the focus on reducing stretching in the article. I understand the issue for previously injured people and it is good that ergonomic keyboards and other hardware exist. While hitting the keys, our finger muscles get stronger in a specific movement, but like other muscles, they get shorter. Some stretching helps to keep a balance between strength and motion range. Would it be better to stretch our fingers after a long typing session, or even better, stretch while typing ;-) using some odd placed keys for their gym effect?
I am a big fan of the kinesis advantage keyboards but I really do wish they had an extra thumb key so you could have cmd, ctrl, and option keys on both sides.
I went from an Advantage 360 to the Glove80 and I like the thumb clusters a lot better on the Glove80. In addition to having more keys, I find I can reach all of them without having to move my hand position as much.
Reading reviews of this type of keyboard is really interesting to me because their use is such a subjective experience. I have found that the glove80 has far and away the most comfortable thumb cluster for my hands as well as the most comfortable positioning for my pinkies.
I couldn’t make the corne variants work because tucking my thumbs hurt. The ergodox is too big. Even a keyboard like the ZSA Voyager just doesn’t fit me right. However, the glove80, running a 40 key layout that I’ve come up with after doing a fair amount of heat mapping my own keystrokes, gets rid of all my hand and wrist discomfort. My only complaint is what a hassle it is to haul around.
The only “wisdom” (hard earned) I would pass along is:
- Make a heat map of your keyboard over a few days to see what keys you need.
- tweak your layout to make it easy and comfortable to get to the keys and key combos you use.
- remember you do NOT have to use every key!
I have a Chocofi (36 key, 3x5 + 3 thumb per half). My complaint with the Cornes is that the keyboard doesn't have enough stagger for where they thumb cluster is positioned. Either the thumb cluster should move out like the ZSA voyager or more stagger is needed like Ferris sweep and most newer boards at a similar size including mine.
I'm curious but not particularly enthusiastic about keywells because I find the biggest improvement with a split keyboard is the tenting. My personal setup uses heavy tenting+tilting (basically half of a square base pyramid split on the square's diagonal) with the keyboard in my lap and my forearms resting on the chair arms locks me into a neutral wrist position without any active muscle effort. Keeping a good wrist position through the entire day instead of just the first half makes a noticeable difference.
Finally, I use the neutral thumb keys for shift on hold but I don't use any other thumb holds because I believe it has stress injury risks[1]. They're used for important but relatively infrequent keys: backspace, enter, tab, esc.
[1] https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html
Yeah, I have found it most comfortable to use two keys on each thumb cluster. Space, Enter, Layer 1, Layer 2. I also like how ZSA's thumb cluster it moved out (Keyboardio really did it the best imho), but for some reason the keywell on the glove80 makes it much easier on my pinkies than the ortho layout on the voyager.
How did you find an ideal tent + tilt setup? Whenever I've tried I've wound up with sore wrists or hands, so just gave up. It seems like the glove80 w/out wrist rests does "good enough" so I stopped trying to optimize, even though the temptation remains.
I've seen some members of the erg keyboard community design and print their own pcbs based on their hand dimensions. I just don't have the time for it and fear how far down the rabbit hole I'd wind up if I did.
> How did you find an ideal tent + tilt setup?
I had the idea that the best position for long sessions would be the most relaxed one so I put my hands in my lap on top of a lapboard (old Wacom tablet) and tried to put they keyboard halves under my fingers. I cut up a shipping box for the tenting stand. It took me eight iterations with three fresh starts but doesn't take that long with cardboard and tape. Stick the keyboard onto the stand with double sided tape, fill the cardboard pyramid with change for weight, and it's been like that for eight months. I'll come up with a more permanent solution at some point but it's working well so I'm not in a hurry.
The positioning was mostly about getting the wrists straight with the keyboard halves in-plane. The in-plane part was, naturally, the tricky part and that was mostly about getting the pinky corners set and then small adjustments until the index corners felt good. I have it set so perfectly aligned requires me to slightly lift my arms off the armrests which prevents sore spots on the forearms. At rest with the sides of my palms on the lapboard my fingers are off to the side of the keys but I can still type.
> I've seen some members of the erg keyboard community design and print their own pcbs based on their hand dimensions
I follow the reddit community and see those as well. Someone started up a business selling fitted keywell boards (Cyboard) but the general consensus seems to be that the glove80 is good enough. I have some patches on my local ZMK (mostly changing chord detection) but no particular desire to do the hardware side. If I had a 3d printer I might consider it since apparently hand wiring isn't that hard if you have a print to hold the switches.
After developing a wrist pain which made moving my right-hand thumb ache, I discovered the usefulness of reprogramming the home keys to tap (letter) and hold (shift-Ctrl-Alt) on my Ergodox. Also, I shifted Space and Return to the left thumb cluster.
One does indeed not need to use all the keys. Lesson learned!
Recommendations for making a keyboard heatmap?
Others can make more informed recommendations; to the best of my knowledge it's going to depend on your keyboard and what firmware it runs. (There are some os-level heatmappers you can use, too.) When I used a Voyager I used the Heatmap feature in ZSA's keymapp app. When I was using a corne I used Via/Vial to do it. I finally found my way to the glove and used the data from those.
I wish manufacturers of ergonomic keyboards would pay more attention to pointing devices. After all, with modern UIs we have to use the pointer. Having a hand jump to a mouse all the time is, at least, distracting.
Another factor is skeletal symmetry. Reaching for a mouse changes the natural balance of posture. I'm not a doctor, but it cannot be healthy over decades. That's why after many years I'm now using the pointing device with my non-dominant hand most of the time. My dominant hand only takes the mouse when I have to do precise or graphic work. This approach makes my back, neck and shoulders feel better.
And the last major gripe I have with most of ergonomic keyboards is how they misunderstand tactile feedback. They try to make all keys feel the same. Glove80 takes it to the limit with its uniform and flat key shapes and identical switches. I don't think this is helpful. Notice how F and J on most keyboards have bumps. Every key should have a bump, a unique shape, a unique surface texture. I want to subconsciously know I hit the right key.
For me, what has solved definitively the pointing device problem, after experimenting for many years with various mice, trackballs, trackpoints or touchpads, is switching to the use of a stylus on a small Wacom tablet as the pointing device (under Linux).
I use the tablet configured in the "Relative" mode, where it behaves identically to a mouse. The tablet has about the same size or somewhat smaller than a traditional mouse pad.
In comparison with a mouse, holding and moving the very light stylus requires much less force than with a mouse, the hand position is much more comfortable and the speed and accuracy of the movements are much higher.
Because the stylus is extremely light, I can keep it between the fingers while touch-typing with all fingers on the keyboard. Therefore when I alternate between typing and pointing the transitions are faster and more comfortable than with a mouse, because I do not have to grasp the mouse every time.
When I type longer texts, I drop the stylus on the tablet. I configure the stylus so that touching the tablet causes left mouse click and the 2 buttons that are on the stylus cause respectively right mouse click and double left click.
Regarding your complaint about key shapes, many decades ago I had used a high-quality keyboard, with Hall sensors for the keys, and where each key had a different shape and height.
Unfortunately, after assembling my first IBM PC/AT compatible computer, I had to abandon that keyboard, because it was incompatible (it came from some kind of DEC-compatible video terminal). Otherwise, I have no doubt that this keyboard would have still worked finely even today, as it did not have any parts sensitive to wear, unlike modern keyboards.
Svalboard can have various kinds of pointing devices integrated into it, within reach of your fingers without having to change your hand position, but it's a pretty extreme keyboard design even by modern standards.
I Velcro a touch pad on the middle of my kinesis advantage.
They made the Form keyboard but not sure the they haven't done the same for the ergo design.
It's a no brainer.
You reference Kinesis in the article so I assume you've seen the Kinesis Advantage 360? I've been a happy Kinseis Advantage user for two decades, and the 360 is pretty much perfect. It has dedicated keys for activating layers, you can remap and configure on a website using web serial, and it is extremely premium looking/feeling. And of course it's very comfortable without the thumb key problem discussed in this article.
The Kinesis Advantage literally saved my career. I have lived in fear for a long time that the company would go out of business. So every chance I can justify I send them another $400 for their latest keyboard so I help keep them in business and increase my stockpile.
I have had an advantage, advantage pro, advantage 2, and an advantage 360 pro.
The 360 comes close but it’s a miss for me. I really don’t like the omission of the function keys, and the switches feel muddied compared to the ones on the previous advantage keyboards.
If they fixed those two things and added another 1-2 keys to the thumb cluster, I think that would be the ultimate keyboard for me.
I transitioned from a "normal" keyboard to a Glove80 last year. I immediately didn't like using the standard layout, so I switched to Colemak-DH which I've found pretty comfortable.
The thumb clusters are definitely a pain, I find myself only really using the 3 closest buttons one each side. Even then, the closest button on the upper row requires a stretch that gets uncomfortable after a while. It hasn't been bad enough for me to consider trying other keyboards though--the prices are too high for me to feel comfortable buying something I might not like.
To anyone that switches to a split keyboard, I strongly recommend also getting a trackball mouse (I use a Ploopy Adept). It lets you center the keyboard in front of you without needing to stretch too far while manipulating the mouse.
I have had literally this exact same experience with the Glove80.
I like everything about it except for the thumb cluster. it is, amazingly, worse than the Ergodox EZ.
I wish the author would spring for a wireless Dygma Defy and tell us how that thumb cluster compares :)
Not the author, I did that transition myself and so far I'm pretty satisfied with the Defy.
thanks! I'm not convinced I really care about the concavity - I got the Glove80 because it was cheaper for wireless and ZMK seemed like a safer bet than the Dygma custom layout engine. You're happy with that side of things?
I only have the wireless version. The keyboard management software Dygma makes is spectacular, I was quite pleased. It's quite a step up from the janky web editor Moergo provides, requiring downloading a file and then doing a keyboard re-flashing dance.
Yeah the glove thumb pad sucks. Those 2 keys furthest away are impossible with RSI. Surely it's obvious. I'm surprised they haven't refined them.
Apart from that it's a great keyboard.
Have you tried the moonlander, or similar style thumb pads with articulated or more exaggerated angle? Seems to me that the thumb action should be at about 90 degrees to the finger action. I have a fancy keyboard to help with wrist issues, and I think thumb issues will arise next.
I have used splits for a long time. An improvement I swear by for thumb clusters is making the keys farther from me taller. I have no idea how I'd hit them without that. My keyboard is a Keebio Iris [0]. The thumb keys closest to me have relatively low-profile DSA key caps. The keys above them are SA (edit: row 3). I think this is a decent avenue for keyboard customizers to explore to make their thumbs have a better time reaching up a row.
The Glove uses low profile switches though, so I have no idea if different height caps are even possible with those.
[0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard
profiled keycaps are absolutely possible but I haven't seen any out there. someone wanting that would probably have to 3D print their own, or at least some kind of spacer
Same. Owned two. Sold both of them because of the thumb cluster issue, it was killing my thumb joint.
No discussion about ergonomics is complete without a mention of the Svalboard[0], a spiritual successor to the DataHand you can actually purchase today. I'm not affiliated in any way, just a happy user who's career has been saved by the Svalboard when no other ergonomic keyboard could.
[0] https://svalboard.com
Old school datahand user here, are you using the trackball version of The Svalboard? How does it work as a mouse replacement?
I kind of regret my glove80 purchase after getting on the ortholinear ergo bandwagon to replace a microsoft sculpt. It's solidly built, happy to support and I'm using it to type this currently as a sunk cost fallacy... but similar concerns re: the inner thumb clusters being difficult to reach without repositioning palms. I've mapped them as: alt and space on the inner left and alt+space (power toys search) and layer on the inner right with another space on the right closer to my thumb. That's the biggest game changer vs. another keyboard: having backspace accessible with the left thumb and space with the right thumb is amazing. I also cannot reach the bottom outer 2/3 buttons with my pinkies and have 'medium' glove hands. Also for the cost, I was disappointed that one can't individually control/map the RGB LEDs so what is the bloody point of having them.
Glove80 is a decent ready-made product but it's simply too big. From my experience, sofle/silakka/lily58 with tenting solution worked better since they have smaller thumb cluster and surface but still takes advantage of same structure.
The ones I listed are well open sourced and modularized, you can print out parts as you go - trackpad, trackball, tilting pad, joystick whatever you want.
you can remap individual LEDs - it's awkward but there's a community firmware that you can use without ever leaving the web editor. the layout language is also pretty raw but it's doable.
I've usually seen "thumb clusters" used for those style of key layouts, rather than thumb pads.
I've been using some variant of the Kinesis Advantage line for over 10 years - currently the Advantage360, their split board. I used an ergodox for a few years before that.
The Advantages are all 3d curved layouts with thumb clusters like the Maltron, and I haven't had RSI issues since making the move. The 360pro runs ZMK for firmware customization, and the stands do support different tenting angles.
Worth a try if you're looking for a more direct alternative to the Maltron.
Did I just drop acid?
What about Maltron in Colemack?
https://colemak.com/
Or the Dactyl Manuform?
https://nathanfriend.com/2023/06/26/i-built-a-weird-keyboard...
Or Keyzen:
https://store.azeron.eu/azeron-keypads#keypad=keyzen
I just want an MC Escher keyboard, so I can type upside down and sideways.
> I analysed a full day of my keystrokes with xkbcat, which was very useful: my most frequently pressed keys are not what I would have guessed! For example, I discovered that I type ‘>’ far more often than ‘<’6.
Excellent approach, though rarely used in layout design, at most you'd get frequency distribution of typed text instead of pressed keys
> Both hands need access to each of these modifiers, because using a modifier and typing a key with the same hand often involves painful contortions.
While home row mods is a better solution, another alternative is "sticky" mods that would remove the need to hold, so you can use the same hand without pain
> On a normal keyboard, if I press ‘f’ then ‘g’ I can roll from one to the other and press ‘g’ while ‘f’ still hasn’t been released – ‘fg’ will be sent to the computer. With home row mods, this ends up sending ‘G’.
This might be config issue. With a roll you release F before G (your fingers roll off the first key before rolling off the second), so this should type regular FG in properly configured home row mods instead of just capitalized G.
> The practical effect of this is that ‘f’ isn’t sent to the computer as soon as you press down, but only when you release the key.
Are there implementations that send F immediately, but send backspace to delete F if you hold?
While it's missing the concavity of either the Glove80 or the Maltron, I've been so happy with the Keyboardio's thumb cluster (and palm keys) that I'm more than willing to overlook that regression. The Keyboardio's also got a very nice build, and the wood looks great.
I've heard various online stories, over the years, about how nobody nails the ergonomics quite like Maltron does. Which is amazing given how long they've been about.
I have an old Maltron that I got cheap (many years ago and it was old then!) and it's remarkable how unlike a modern consumer product it was. Thin, vacuum formed plastic, point-to-point soldered wire keyboard matrix. But that classic shape, keys with full sized key caps and travel, etc are all present.
The Kinesis I also have is much more mainstream - it feels more solid and looks more like a consumer product. But I understand it's just not quite as good, ergonomically.
I use a Lily58 split/lightly bowled keyboard and it has been a big improvement in many regards. The thumb cluster is a much different approach to the Glove or Maltron, and I think it would benefit people with shorter thumb reach but might feel cramped for those with more mighty talons.
I do bouldering, and I have broken two of my fingers over the years in cycling accidents, and both are ultimately inconsequential compared using/abusing a bad keyboard. If you are thinking about trying a new keyboard design, and you use a keyboard for at least a few hours a day, it will be money well spent.
Placement somewhere between the lily58 and the glove80 with a drop like the maltron would be perfect.
Edit: looks like the keyboardio someone else mentioned gets it right.
The article is interesting. I like the heatmap approach and trying to measure the physical differences between both keyboards. This is putting data behind a feeling and it helps looking for improvement. However for other parts of our body (like when going to the gym), I've been told to stretch as much as to exercise. I find odd the focus on reducing stretching in the article. I understand the issue for previously injured people and it is good that ergonomic keyboards and other hardware exist. While hitting the keys, our finger muscles get stronger in a specific movement, but like other muscles, they get shorter. Some stretching helps to keep a balance between strength and motion range. Would it be better to stretch our fingers after a long typing session, or even better, stretch while typing ;-) using some odd placed keys for their gym effect?
I am a big fan of the kinesis advantage keyboards but I really do wish they had an extra thumb key so you could have cmd, ctrl, and option keys on both sides.
I went from an Advantage 360 to the Glove80 and I like the thumb clusters a lot better on the Glove80. In addition to having more keys, I find I can reach all of them without having to move my hand position as much.