There’s something to be said about an independent system you can understand and expand. What I think will be next frontier in home computing is truly understanding and owning the systems that run a smart home and that comes with understanding the environment (sensor data, presence detection, etc.). We live in an interesting time where embedded development has become so accessible and powerful that we can interface with multiple wireless protocols and state of the art sensors with not a lot of capital investment. If we think what can come beyond screens and imagine more ambient computing systems - maybe we’ll see new and interesting innovations
>We live in an interesting time where embedded development has become so accessible and powerful that we can interface with multiple wireless protocols and state of the art sensors with not a lot of capital investment.
Even on Amazon the ESP32 is less than $5 - means like $1 in Shanghai. Various sensors (even the ones with Bluetooth connectivity) are similarly dirt cheap. You can have a bin of such components like you would have a bin of bolts and nuts 30+ years. Basically we live in a golden era of development (which can disappear in US due to tariffs)
>If we think what can come beyond screens and imagine more ambient computing systems - maybe we’ll see new and interesting innovations
my bet is that it will be more robotics related with practically no humans involved. It is a bit of paradoxical - like for example if we add enough development to existing robots we can for example have an AMZN warehouse run fully without people which in turn would mean that we can have robots there much simpler in various aspects as the absence of humans relaxes a bunch of requirements.
An ESP32 module suitable for hobby use is about 4$ here in Viet Nam. You can get the "raw" ones for maybe 0.50$ less. We're near China, so electronic component price is usually higher than Chinese prices by 1-20% (modules and hobby components on the higher end). If you're ever curious about prices, the good online retailer here is thegioiic ('World of ICs', we love naming businesses 'world of something' here).
Locally, 4$ is probably "more money" to us than 5$ is to you.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a marvel that we can have something so good so cheaply -- but correcting for cost of living, it feels less affordable for us here in Asia.
Anyway, not a criticism. Just sharing a slice of life from over here in case you were curious.
You can only cover some very specific cases like that for robotics.
Also, besides some really huge companies, I would be nervous as a business to rely on a third party so much that I didn't have a workforce of my own.
Yes, it works for automotive (extremely consolidated sector with huge capital), or Amazon, or chipmakers... But they've already gone through that transition. Who else needs that?
> What I think will be next frontier in home computing is truly understanding and owning the systems that run a smart home and that comes with understanding the environment (sensor data, presence detection, etc.)
That's gonna be a while coming - we're now entering a stage where we won't even understand the code that gets written.
Now, sure, some holdouts will understand the code, but that's not going to be the norm soon.
I totally see what you mean - with minified js bundles and mobile walled gardens we've probably already been in that stage for a good ten years - and AI-driven development that we don't even monitor is likely going to make that worse in the short term...
But I do wonder if LLM-driven code analysis might actually increase code comprehension and agency for laymen?
I've been quite impressed with AI's ability to decipher and visualise code and system relationships in e.g. mermaid diagrams.
Perhaps the representation of code will become more elastic (i.e. you have literal code, or AI-produced translations you can directly manipulate)
Coming from HomeKit, I've tried (_really_ tried) to move to Home Assistant. The gap in usability was too enormous for me to cross, and I'd brand myself a hacker.
I won't trust any kind of a "smart" device to operate the front door lock - ever - but smart lightbulbs are still stupid lightbulbs. I can just flick the switch.
Privacy concerns are valid - I can be profiled based on usage. But it's not like Apple doesn't know my precise location already.
With all that in mind, I'd say usability comes first.
I'm not sure what aspect of smart locks you don't trust. If it's reliability, most also accept a physical key as a backup. As far as security, I'm under no impression that the firmware is free of vulnerabilities, but any hack is likey to be at least as hard as lockpicking the average lock, which most people can master with a 10 minute YouTube tutorial. If you're a lock nerd and have upgraded all your locks to some Fort Knox style Medeco model, then sure a smart lock will probably be a downgrade, but for the average person I don't think it's substantially worse than what they already have.
Gold coins were replaced by paper money. Paper money was replaced by credit cards. Now credit cards are being replaced by smartphone wallets. My phone or watch can still pay for stuff while they're offline. For the past 5 years, I didn't carry a physical wallet. I'm doing more with less, and failing safe.
If the lock freaks out - and yeah, I'm having problems with my HomeKit stuff every now and then - I need the physical key on me. That already defeats the purpose. Otherwise I need to grab the spare key from wherever I keep it. This is not a mere inconvenience, this is an emergency procedure.
Actually this thing would be a lot sexier if it were in fact complying with Eurorack standards, imho. There's no better environment to be dropping an alternative computing platform than directly into the rack alongside the rest of the interesting modules of the 21st century ..
I did consider Euro Rack, 19" racks, MiniATX and other case standards.
But with any of these options, i wouldnt be able to keep the price low. The case including all parts and assembly cost is roughly at 20€ per device.
It's an off-the-shelf part, with only lasercutted parts in two materials, and a single custom component which is yet to be determined what's the cheapest manufacturing option.
I wanted to keep the price low and any of the options above would increase the price by at least 40€, which is a subatantial part of the components
It looks like it could be future-compatible with a possible Euro Rack refit? Nothing cooler than DIYing a DSP for your DIY modsynth!
Heightwise, it fits: 100mm vs ER's ~128mm; trickier with depth - 180mm vs "deep" ER modules ~100mm. One option would be a rack with no back panel. Power in ER is already being distributed via a ribbon cable so this shouldn't impact the ability to install standard modules. Electrically - 12V, perfect match.
What is the width of each module? Assuming (250mm-case)/8 ~= 30-32mm?
Module spec should be around 85x28x100 mm size, so we'd have a deep module with around 15mm of "front extrusion" to fit the modules.
It's definitly possible to re-layout the backplane into a different mechanical design, and reduce the number of slots
Final specs will be shared soon, i have to do another revision of the hardware design as i figured mechanical properties like that the "stickyness" of PCIe slots is good enough so you dont actually need mechanical screws to fasten the modules
I love the spirit of this so believe me I’m not here to denigrate it. Just sharing anecdote of building one of those “retro style” Linux/pi kits with my kids some years ago. I thought having a bare metal style machine would get them entranced by computers like it did in the early 80s. But you can’t roll back the clock. Kids today live saturated in a computerized and digital world no matter how much we may try to shelter them from it. When I saw a bare DOS prompt at age 7 it felt like all the magic in the world at my fingertips. But not for my kids. What once was science fiction to me is no more amazing to them then the fact that we have 24 hour indoor electric lighting at the touch of a switch. It’s just a different world today.
You're absolutely right! I wasn't there either, and i wouldnt want a terminal-only machine.
My goal is providing means and knowledge to those that want it.
The Ashet is more meant for technical schools, apprenticeship and "the interested", and definitly requires an initial spark that will make that project interesting to you.
It's here to fill a (percieved) gap and wants to sit more in the professional education part than the "get the kids to computing".
I'd love to have had such a hands-on device in school instead of the bare theory of circuit operation and basics of programming.
The OS looks highly opinionated and I respect that. Better to have a single overarching vision than try to do too many things poorly.
However I will question some design choices!
- 32-bit only: the writing is on the wall, many vendors (HW&SW) are slowly moving to kill it off. I guess it's fine, but IMHO each ISA (regardless of pointer width) should just be considered a different ISA. Portability is good, it ensures your software doesn't hardcode too many assumptions about the platform - and weeds out bugs. Just treat an int like an int, and a pointer like a pointer. Distinct types.
- Pure co-op multitasking: it will be completely fine, until you try serious in-system development. Hard reboot any time I make a mistake in a for-loop? Mercy, please :,) Implementing a simple watchdog via a timer interrupt will still keep all of the scheduling logic simple and stupid: it's just another case for a yield call, except now involuntary. The runaway process will simply never see completion, but seeing that it would never yield anyway, I don't see a problem just killing it. And most importantly, the sanity shall be preserved.
Yes, the OS is highly opinionated, as just making another linux is incredibly boring for me!
The 32-bit only constraint is mainly due to my focus on smaller architectures, especially microcontrollers.
x86_64 and aarch64 both have much more complex initialiastion schemes, and also use much more complex page table setups.
Thus, i wanted to keep that out of the system, considering i'm targeting systems with a tiny fraction of the 4 GiB memory limit.
The co-op multitasking is a part of the OS, and the OS doesn't give you preemptive multitasking. I never said i won't implement sanity safeguards! Just killing off a hanging process that doesnt yield for more than 1-5 secs is totally i scope and increases user friendlyness. but considering the system reboots in 1.2 s on target hw right now, the user will maybe just have hit reset by then :D
I've been following Andrew Kelley's writing and zig is probably next on the list for me (previously would have been rust). The story from C to Zig and the ease of cross compilation makes it really tempting. I haven't looked in to the comptime capabilities much but it looks like it could help with some of the embedded work I do
What's the scope of "fully understandable?" How much of this home PC could be reasonably audited by individuals or small teams?
I've got no exceptional opsec needs as an individual, but I spend some time wondering the minimum required resources to audit a PC. Looking through the docs I see cases where there are multiple suppliers for a recommended part -- that's very cool!
As a "fake programmer" and web jockey, this looks like the right balance of complexity to learn with.
I don't think it's really a fair claim in an educational context. There are at least two completely modern computers (which I assume means fairly complex) including the Raspberry PI and another one he is using the the bus or something.
I just don't think modern CPUs really quite fit the claim of "fully understandable by a single person". I mean maybe technically but that is misleading in an educational context where there are much simpler computers that are definitely fully understandable.
Maybe all of the stuff he wraps around the main CPU is understandable though. And the expansion cards are cool.
This looks really interesting. I'd love to make something like this myself, from scratch, but I know I'd only get about 2 days into it before ADHD brain decided to do something else. Plus I'd be the only person who'd ever use it, and at that point it would be easier just to use a commercial PC. It could make a cool "cyberdeck" though. I'm already thinking about how I could do the bus stuff for the expansion cards, without having looked at the exact implementation details for this computer haha
Another ADHD person here and I think my vision is almost the same as the creators. My goal is to build a fully self-hosted risc-v computer from scratch.
It now took me 3 iterations and 3 years to get a somehow working risc-v CPU written in VHDL, that I am mostly satisfied with. It's a crazy hard struggle (finally pipelined though!). Everything breaks, I constantly get headaches and almost want to quit, but somehow I can keep on pushing this project. It helps me a lot.
Almost nothing works, things break all the time, it doesn't even look cool. But somehow it's satisfying that I can type words with a PS/2 keyboard on a VGA screen getting processed by my own RISC-V CPU (running Rust btw lol. I ditched that by now though, the struggle was too big). See here: https://i.imgur.com/PtKeAYt.mp4
I have no idea how far I can make it, maybe not fully self-hosted, but a small OS should be doable. I have interrupts and timers working, so I should have everything I need.
The downside is, I am way worse than OP and have no documentation at all. I should do that, but that's where the motivation is missing.
Edit: I type so slow in the video because I did poll the scancodes (too slow) and had to think which characters not to press, because i dont accept all yet and was scared that it breaks
Wanna hop onto my crazy train and make a second main board?
I wanna make the Ashet Home Computer an open and free platform, so if you implement the backend control interface, you can use all of the environment yourself.
> I am way worse than OP and have no documentation at all.
I confess guilty at the currenr point. I do have planned a large phase in development where i will create entry-level docs for everything, as these are an essential part of the project.
The video is incredibly cool! Ashet started as a SoC in a ECP5, but the RP2350 basically hit all my spec requirements better than i could've done it myself, which made it a no-brainer to ditch the FPGA
I'm also having ADHD but you can get help with the focus problem ;)
It's incredible to work for many years on the same thing and it's so pleasing to have steady progress.
So: Go, start building a vision for your cyberdeck! Having a clear goal helps you working towards building it, and you cam embrace the ADHD by jumping around between the many aspects of such a project.
Haha, I've been trying to get help with the focus problem for a while now :P It's gone on my infinite todo list of projects, and maybe I'll get around to it one day, but its true that it would exercise lots of different brain parts.
The most interesting part to me right now is running Zig on a microcontroller, since that's something I really wanted to do this year (like a new year's resolution thing). I've been interested in Zig for a while, but I've never done any serious learning/programming with it, so I might look at your OS repo to at least gain some inspiration on how deploying to a microcontroller works.
It also seems like it would be a really good way to learn embedded electronics in general, since if I wanted to learn something new, eg lower level network programming, I could make and program a network card, or usb hosting, or anything like that.
I'll definitely try to do it one day, once I've finished all my current projects haha
The best thing that helped me: Force myself to one single project only. And if I really don't want to do the current one, do a ___really___ small one, that's pure fun. I have to remind myself of that again and again, but it helps
Yeah, I've recently started noting down my "ongoing projects" so that I can try to stay more aware of them, limit what I start to like two projects maximum, and push stuff back onto the future list where possible
Since we're having an impromptu ADHD club forming in this thread - I totally feel you. I've had too many ideas like this one, even some prototypes over the years.
There are many tricks to stay focused, particularly when there are no stakeholders but you. Try a body double, someone to keep you in check - you can also return the favor, like working from the same room, or just coming to their home to watch them clean while you do your stuff.
When you do get hyperfixated on something - that can be a very productive period, until you crash. Again, bring in a friend. Not to get back to it - just to make sure you're still eating. Don't push yourself to either side, find your own balance around it - I've picked up many hobbies where I've slowed down, but maintained interest over the years, decades.
Look for buddies in your local neurodivergent group, there's usually one somewhere near you. (Even here on HN, it turns out.)
Yeah, I've tended to be more successful at things when my partner is keeping me in check, but she doesn't live with me so that's not very often :P We might end up with a house together in the not too distant future though
The OS made me wonder how far someone could get trying to create a GUI for the 6502. I suppose the Apple II (GS?) headed there before the Mac fully took the reins and the Apple II was left out to pasture.
One comment on the IIgs vs the C64; the IIgs had a 16-bit CPU and tons of RAM, so GS/OS is not necessarily representative of what is possible on a 6502.
Some day, whenever I have the money to skunkworks this properly, I've wanted to create something like a modern spiritual successor to the Atari ST with enhanced creature comforts.
Something with a CPU based on POWER architecture (like microwatt) with a simplified multicore design (no hyperthreading or weird BIG+little core design - just straightforward homogeneous cores), a simple expansion interface of some kind, and an OS baked into ROM. Then I'd consider it to be built around a long term support model, with one design that can last decades, complete with schematics, chip design reference guide, and an open specification so it can be easily cloned as desired.
Especially now that Moore's Law and Dennard Scaling has slowed down considerably, it could be a fun platform to target for education or the demoscene, instead of spec chasing.
I realize that 8MB of RAM seems absurdly small to modern audiences, but I can assure you that I ran early versions of Turbo Pascal and compiled fine with 64K.
I know, i know! This is what makes me a bit sad. I dont know of any modern compiler i can use on the platform, as most hobby compilers target aarch64 or 32/64 bit x86.
What i need tho is a compiler that targets Arm/Thumb-2.
My research tells me that this confines me to:
- A non-complete patch series for TCC (maybe)
- LLVM
- GCC
As twonof them obviously won't run on 8 MB, my options are stripped down to:
- Evaluate CBE and write my own backend and add 32 bit support
- Write my own compiler + backend
Both options don't sound viable before the release as they would increase the scope greatly.
Considered the effort required to add Lua support to the platform? At least eLua would fit and probably provide a great environment for onboard development (i.e. non-crosscompiling...)
The Parallax P8X32A Propeller (2006) did multi-core processing in a very beginner friendly way.
It can be done - if you take a holistic approach to hardware + runtime + development environment.
The Propeller probably failed because of the custom language, the custom assembly syntax, the custom ISA, the custom IDE font (!) etc. It was a very neat system though.
The Propeller was a commercial failure because it was a one-off part, from a small company, with very little software ecosystem surrounding it, a poor performance to price ratio, and no migration path if you needed more capabilities than it could provide.
"Arduino" is a brand of development boards. The direct equivalent would be the Atmel* ATmega168, and that was widely available through distributors, less expensive, had extensive manufacturer and community support, and was part of a broad product line.
What makes microcontrollers commercially successful is... commercial use. Hobbyist applications are fun, but they don't pay the bills.
Agree. Most computers that are a joy to learn have a handful of controllers that operate in parallel. That is, multiple cores
The Apple II had a really cool disk drive because of how it did what it did with so little hardware. By relying on the single CPU for everything it was elegant, advanced, interesting... but perhaps not so easy to program.
Along similar lines but physically much smaller, there are currently about 3 or 4 boards[1] that have RP2350, DVI, USB host, and SD card, ranging in cost from about $15 to $40.
A particular sweet spot is emulating 8 and 16 bit systems, as latency can be just as good as an FPGA setup. The infoNES emulator has been running on RP2040 for a while, and I see projects for Sega Master System, Genesis, Apple II, and Mac in the works. But you can also write much more powerful software natively.
Likely it will be possible to adapt software between these various RP2350 systems.
> To fund development for this critical next stage, we will launch a crowdfunding campaign on a platform such as Indiegogo or Kickstarter.
Great point. I highly recommend crowdsupply for this type of project (extremely technical target customers), especially if this is the first campaign you run, as their team is helping much more on the nuances of running a successful campaign.
(I know this is not the place for ads, and I’m not affiliated though I run crowdfunding campaigns on all the platforms mentioned.)
> Fully understandable by a single person, yet powerful enough to run a graphical desktop OS, it tries to bridge the gap between Arduinos and a RaspberryPi.
Considering this uses a RP2350, I am pretty sure that no single person on earth has a full understanding of this Computer.
The RP2350 is one hell of a tool, and I've seen it being used to solve some extremely thorny problems with great success.
So I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks who understand whats going on, especially if they approach their study of the Ashet from the perspective of the RP2350.
Basically, its one hell of a swiss army knife for building computer systems.
I can solve thorny problems using Linux on a Laptop too, that doesn't mean I understand even 1% of the system. Even a relatively simple modern Microcontroller is so extremely complex that I don't think a single person could describe every aspect of it in detail.
By way of anecdotal counterpoint, I've got a teenage trainee apprentice working in my lab who can indeed read the RP2350 datasheet and describe what its doing and how to use it effectively in other applications.
I don't think things are as difficult to understand as you do - but then again, I grew up with 8-bit computers where it really was competitively important to understand how they worked - and I don't think the cyclomatic complexity of the Ashet is much greater than anything from that era.
Reading and applying the datasheet doesn't mean understanding the whole system. I don't even think a single employee of Raspberry Pi Foundation entirely understands the chip. It's a combination of IP cores and work of many different people, and probably too complex for a single person.
He's still too young for something like this but I've been searching for something to use when we more properly introduce my son to computers. Using modern components to make something useful that still exposes the electronics side, encourages tinkering and exploration over media consumption, etc and it seems like a project like this could fit the bill nicely!
I came across them (and they seem very cool!) but my working theory is that, in addition to more electronics heavy projects like those, I also want something that can fill the role of the apple ii plus that was the "family computer" when I was a kid without going straight to giving him access to a modern desktop/computer which feel so hermetic.
I'm somehow very confident in this while also being sure that people probably thought very similar things about home radios destroying the youth in the 1920s :D
I think machines are more for adults and passionate teenagers than for children. But you can also look at the tulip creative computer that is more geared towards creative computing (especially music)
i've been thinking about how to build a retro-style computer without any of the engineering compromises that made old machines so weird. lots of ideas, no progress. perhaps some sort of small riscv machine and a separate processor to manage the system (esp32) remotely, so you can always modify the filesystem or whatever from a bigger machine?
Not ragging on the author, but I'm always confused whenever I see a "make your own computer" project like this that doesn't start with hardware first. I mean, there's already seems to be a quite advanced OS for it and some detailed docs, but no physical "computer" to speak of, just a lot of mockups.
Why a hardware project at that point and not a virtual machine like pico-8?
I'm just saying, its kinda the opposite approach a hardware person would take.
Please take a look at the gallery, where there are photos of the actual electronics setups!
Also don't the mechanical mockups count as hardware? A pile of jumperwires, breadboards and devices don't make a good hero image, but physical hardware mockups do.
Also the electronics design in its current form is actually iteration 5 of the system, while the OS development started with iteration 2.
>A pile of jumperwires, breadboards and devices don't make a good hero image
I strongly disagree! Hardware people love seeing that sort of thing - the more guts you show, the better. It means you've gotten something to work and probably know what you're talking about. Take pride in what you have accomplished so far! Ideas and concepts are a dime a dozen; working hardware is a worthy milestone.
Add email notifications with updates on your progress. I won’t remember to come back and look at this for … maybe ever but I’d open and read a news letter on the progress
https://ashet.computer/hardware/ looks like hardware to me. While not all the manufacturing considerations have been addressed, there's a "functional cable clutter prototype", and you can build your own Ashet-compatible.
There’s something to be said about an independent system you can understand and expand. What I think will be next frontier in home computing is truly understanding and owning the systems that run a smart home and that comes with understanding the environment (sensor data, presence detection, etc.). We live in an interesting time where embedded development has become so accessible and powerful that we can interface with multiple wireless protocols and state of the art sensors with not a lot of capital investment. If we think what can come beyond screens and imagine more ambient computing systems - maybe we’ll see new and interesting innovations
>We live in an interesting time where embedded development has become so accessible and powerful that we can interface with multiple wireless protocols and state of the art sensors with not a lot of capital investment.
Even on Amazon the ESP32 is less than $5 - means like $1 in Shanghai. Various sensors (even the ones with Bluetooth connectivity) are similarly dirt cheap. You can have a bin of such components like you would have a bin of bolts and nuts 30+ years. Basically we live in a golden era of development (which can disappear in US due to tariffs)
>If we think what can come beyond screens and imagine more ambient computing systems - maybe we’ll see new and interesting innovations
my bet is that it will be more robotics related with practically no humans involved. It is a bit of paradoxical - like for example if we add enough development to existing robots we can for example have an AMZN warehouse run fully without people which in turn would mean that we can have robots there much simpler in various aspects as the absence of humans relaxes a bunch of requirements.
An ESP32 module suitable for hobby use is about 4$ here in Viet Nam. You can get the "raw" ones for maybe 0.50$ less. We're near China, so electronic component price is usually higher than Chinese prices by 1-20% (modules and hobby components on the higher end). If you're ever curious about prices, the good online retailer here is thegioiic ('World of ICs', we love naming businesses 'world of something' here).
Locally, 4$ is probably "more money" to us than 5$ is to you.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a marvel that we can have something so good so cheaply -- but correcting for cost of living, it feels less affordable for us here in Asia.
Anyway, not a criticism. Just sharing a slice of life from over here in case you were curious.
You can only cover some very specific cases like that for robotics.
Also, besides some really huge companies, I would be nervous as a business to rely on a third party so much that I didn't have a workforce of my own.
Yes, it works for automotive (extremely consolidated sector with huge capital), or Amazon, or chipmakers... But they've already gone through that transition. Who else needs that?
I just bought a bunch of these and a reflow soldering gun.
The real bottleneck is getting custom pcbs made.
The best companies that do this are in China and soon will be tarrifed
Learn how to roll (etch) your own?
For limited applications it's really not that difficult :)
Too many chemicals. Not nearly worth the time when you can order from JLPCB for $4 a board
> What I think will be next frontier in home computing is truly understanding and owning the systems that run a smart home and that comes with understanding the environment (sensor data, presence detection, etc.)
That's gonna be a while coming - we're now entering a stage where we won't even understand the code that gets written.
Now, sure, some holdouts will understand the code, but that's not going to be the norm soon.
I totally see what you mean - with minified js bundles and mobile walled gardens we've probably already been in that stage for a good ten years - and AI-driven development that we don't even monitor is likely going to make that worse in the short term...
But I do wonder if LLM-driven code analysis might actually increase code comprehension and agency for laymen?
I've been quite impressed with AI's ability to decipher and visualise code and system relationships in e.g. mermaid diagrams.
Perhaps the representation of code will become more elastic (i.e. you have literal code, or AI-produced translations you can directly manipulate)
There's a balance to be struck here.
Coming from HomeKit, I've tried (_really_ tried) to move to Home Assistant. The gap in usability was too enormous for me to cross, and I'd brand myself a hacker.
I won't trust any kind of a "smart" device to operate the front door lock - ever - but smart lightbulbs are still stupid lightbulbs. I can just flick the switch.
Privacy concerns are valid - I can be profiled based on usage. But it's not like Apple doesn't know my precise location already.
With all that in mind, I'd say usability comes first.
I'm not sure what aspect of smart locks you don't trust. If it's reliability, most also accept a physical key as a backup. As far as security, I'm under no impression that the firmware is free of vulnerabilities, but any hack is likey to be at least as hard as lockpicking the average lock, which most people can master with a 10 minute YouTube tutorial. If you're a lock nerd and have upgraded all your locks to some Fort Knox style Medeco model, then sure a smart lock will probably be a downgrade, but for the average person I don't think it's substantially worse than what they already have.
Gold coins were replaced by paper money. Paper money was replaced by credit cards. Now credit cards are being replaced by smartphone wallets. My phone or watch can still pay for stuff while they're offline. For the past 5 years, I didn't carry a physical wallet. I'm doing more with less, and failing safe.
If the lock freaks out - and yeah, I'm having problems with my HomeKit stuff every now and then - I need the physical key on me. That already defeats the purpose. Otherwise I need to grab the spare key from wherever I keep it. This is not a mere inconvenience, this is an emergency procedure.
I like the eurorack-esque modular design. Not everyone will want the same base layout, so making it swapable like that is a nice touch.
Actually this thing would be a lot sexier if it were in fact complying with Eurorack standards, imho. There's no better environment to be dropping an alternative computing platform than directly into the rack alongside the rest of the interesting modules of the 21st century ..
Creator here!
I did consider Euro Rack, 19" racks, MiniATX and other case standards. But with any of these options, i wouldnt be able to keep the price low. The case including all parts and assembly cost is roughly at 20€ per device. It's an off-the-shelf part, with only lasercutted parts in two materials, and a single custom component which is yet to be determined what's the cheapest manufacturing option.
I wanted to keep the price low and any of the options above would increase the price by at least 40€, which is a subatantial part of the components
It looks like it could be future-compatible with a possible Euro Rack refit? Nothing cooler than DIYing a DSP for your DIY modsynth!
Heightwise, it fits: 100mm vs ER's ~128mm; trickier with depth - 180mm vs "deep" ER modules ~100mm. One option would be a rack with no back panel. Power in ER is already being distributed via a ribbon cable so this shouldn't impact the ability to install standard modules. Electrically - 12V, perfect match.
What is the width of each module? Assuming (250mm-case)/8 ~= 30-32mm?
Module spec should be around 85x28x100 mm size, so we'd have a deep module with around 15mm of "front extrusion" to fit the modules.
It's definitly possible to re-layout the backplane into a different mechanical design, and reduce the number of slots
Final specs will be shared soon, i have to do another revision of the hardware design as i figured mechanical properties like that the "stickyness" of PCIe slots is good enough so you dont actually need mechanical screws to fasten the modules
I love the spirit of this so believe me I’m not here to denigrate it. Just sharing anecdote of building one of those “retro style” Linux/pi kits with my kids some years ago. I thought having a bare metal style machine would get them entranced by computers like it did in the early 80s. But you can’t roll back the clock. Kids today live saturated in a computerized and digital world no matter how much we may try to shelter them from it. When I saw a bare DOS prompt at age 7 it felt like all the magic in the world at my fingertips. But not for my kids. What once was science fiction to me is no more amazing to them then the fact that we have 24 hour indoor electric lighting at the touch of a switch. It’s just a different world today.
Creator here!
You're absolutely right! I wasn't there either, and i wouldnt want a terminal-only machine.
My goal is providing means and knowledge to those that want it. The Ashet is more meant for technical schools, apprenticeship and "the interested", and definitly requires an initial spark that will make that project interesting to you.
It's here to fill a (percieved) gap and wants to sit more in the professional education part than the "get the kids to computing".
I'd love to have had such a hands-on device in school instead of the bare theory of circuit operation and basics of programming.
Their OS is written in Zig!
Thought it might be of interest to people learning Zig. I bet there are some interesting examples in there.The OS looks highly opinionated and I respect that. Better to have a single overarching vision than try to do too many things poorly.
However I will question some design choices!
- 32-bit only: the writing is on the wall, many vendors (HW&SW) are slowly moving to kill it off. I guess it's fine, but IMHO each ISA (regardless of pointer width) should just be considered a different ISA. Portability is good, it ensures your software doesn't hardcode too many assumptions about the platform - and weeds out bugs. Just treat an int like an int, and a pointer like a pointer. Distinct types.
- Pure co-op multitasking: it will be completely fine, until you try serious in-system development. Hard reboot any time I make a mistake in a for-loop? Mercy, please :,) Implementing a simple watchdog via a timer interrupt will still keep all of the scheduling logic simple and stupid: it's just another case for a yield call, except now involuntary. The runaway process will simply never see completion, but seeing that it would never yield anyway, I don't see a problem just killing it. And most importantly, the sanity shall be preserved.
Creator here!
Yes, the OS is highly opinionated, as just making another linux is incredibly boring for me!
The 32-bit only constraint is mainly due to my focus on smaller architectures, especially microcontrollers.
x86_64 and aarch64 both have much more complex initialiastion schemes, and also use much more complex page table setups.
Thus, i wanted to keep that out of the system, considering i'm targeting systems with a tiny fraction of the 4 GiB memory limit.
The co-op multitasking is a part of the OS, and the OS doesn't give you preemptive multitasking. I never said i won't implement sanity safeguards! Just killing off a hanging process that doesnt yield for more than 1-5 secs is totally i scope and increases user friendlyness. but considering the system reboots in 1.2 s on target hw right now, the user will maybe just have hit reset by then :D
> considering the system reboots in 1.2 s
That's not the point - it's about usability. You'd be constantly losing work.
> Just killing off a hanging process that doesnt yield [...]
<3 !
I've been following Andrew Kelley's writing and zig is probably next on the list for me (previously would have been rust). The story from C to Zig and the ease of cross compilation makes it really tempting. I haven't looked in to the comptime capabilities much but it looks like it could help with some of the embedded work I do
> Fully understandable by a single person
Riddle me this, Batman.
What's the scope of "fully understandable?" How much of this home PC could be reasonably audited by individuals or small teams?
I've got no exceptional opsec needs as an individual, but I spend some time wondering the minimum required resources to audit a PC. Looking through the docs I see cases where there are multiple suppliers for a recommended part -- that's very cool!
As a "fake programmer" and web jockey, this looks like the right balance of complexity to learn with.
I don't think it's really a fair claim in an educational context. There are at least two completely modern computers (which I assume means fairly complex) including the Raspberry PI and another one he is using the the bus or something.
I just don't think modern CPUs really quite fit the claim of "fully understandable by a single person". I mean maybe technically but that is misleading in an educational context where there are much simpler computers that are definitely fully understandable.
Maybe all of the stuff he wraps around the main CPU is understandable though. And the expansion cards are cool.
That's a Raspberry Pi Pico. Very different platform to the Raspberry Pi proper, and a lot closer to being "understandable" in its entirety.
> but that is misleading in an educational context where there are much simpler computers that are definitely fully understandable.
Are there any other projects or resources in this space that you'd recommend?
A friend and I cut our teeth on those AlphaSmart word processors that ran BASIC. I might could wrap my head around that.
Ben Eater’s 6502 series (and whole channel) is the gold standard (imo) for understanding how a computer works in every detail.
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLowKtXNTBypFbtuVMUVXNR0z1...
I cannot recommend Code by Charles Petzold enough, especially the new second edition.
This looks really interesting. I'd love to make something like this myself, from scratch, but I know I'd only get about 2 days into it before ADHD brain decided to do something else. Plus I'd be the only person who'd ever use it, and at that point it would be easier just to use a commercial PC. It could make a cool "cyberdeck" though. I'm already thinking about how I could do the bus stuff for the expansion cards, without having looked at the exact implementation details for this computer haha
Another ADHD person here and I think my vision is almost the same as the creators. My goal is to build a fully self-hosted risc-v computer from scratch.
It now took me 3 iterations and 3 years to get a somehow working risc-v CPU written in VHDL, that I am mostly satisfied with. It's a crazy hard struggle (finally pipelined though!). Everything breaks, I constantly get headaches and almost want to quit, but somehow I can keep on pushing this project. It helps me a lot.
Almost nothing works, things break all the time, it doesn't even look cool. But somehow it's satisfying that I can type words with a PS/2 keyboard on a VGA screen getting processed by my own RISC-V CPU (running Rust btw lol. I ditched that by now though, the struggle was too big). See here: https://i.imgur.com/PtKeAYt.mp4
I have no idea how far I can make it, maybe not fully self-hosted, but a small OS should be doable. I have interrupts and timers working, so I should have everything I need.
The downside is, I am way worse than OP and have no documentation at all. I should do that, but that's where the motivation is missing.
Edit: I type so slow in the video because I did poll the scancodes (too slow) and had to think which characters not to press, because i dont accept all yet and was scared that it breaks
Creator here!
Wanna hop onto my crazy train and make a second main board?
I wanna make the Ashet Home Computer an open and free platform, so if you implement the backend control interface, you can use all of the environment yourself.
> I am way worse than OP and have no documentation at all.
I confess guilty at the currenr point. I do have planned a large phase in development where i will create entry-level docs for everything, as these are an essential part of the project.
The video is incredibly cool! Ashet started as a SoC in a ECP5, but the RP2350 basically hit all my spec requirements better than i could've done it myself, which made it a no-brainer to ditch the FPGA
Creator here!
I'm also having ADHD but you can get help with the focus problem ;)
It's incredible to work for many years on the same thing and it's so pleasing to have steady progress.
So: Go, start building a vision for your cyberdeck! Having a clear goal helps you working towards building it, and you cam embrace the ADHD by jumping around between the many aspects of such a project.
sw design, hw design, visual design, mechanical design, handcrafting, soldering, programming, making websites, asking people, ...
Haha, I've been trying to get help with the focus problem for a while now :P It's gone on my infinite todo list of projects, and maybe I'll get around to it one day, but its true that it would exercise lots of different brain parts.
The most interesting part to me right now is running Zig on a microcontroller, since that's something I really wanted to do this year (like a new year's resolution thing). I've been interested in Zig for a while, but I've never done any serious learning/programming with it, so I might look at your OS repo to at least gain some inspiration on how deploying to a microcontroller works.
It also seems like it would be a really good way to learn embedded electronics in general, since if I wanted to learn something new, eg lower level network programming, I could make and program a network card, or usb hosting, or anything like that.
I'll definitely try to do it one day, once I've finished all my current projects haha
> It's gone on my infinite todo list of projects
The best thing that helped me: Force myself to one single project only. And if I really don't want to do the current one, do a ___really___ small one, that's pure fun. I have to remind myself of that again and again, but it helps
Yeah, I've recently started noting down my "ongoing projects" so that I can try to stay more aware of them, limit what I start to like two projects maximum, and push stuff back onto the future list where possible
Since we're having an impromptu ADHD club forming in this thread - I totally feel you. I've had too many ideas like this one, even some prototypes over the years.
There are many tricks to stay focused, particularly when there are no stakeholders but you. Try a body double, someone to keep you in check - you can also return the favor, like working from the same room, or just coming to their home to watch them clean while you do your stuff.
When you do get hyperfixated on something - that can be a very productive period, until you crash. Again, bring in a friend. Not to get back to it - just to make sure you're still eating. Don't push yourself to either side, find your own balance around it - I've picked up many hobbies where I've slowed down, but maintained interest over the years, decades.
Look for buddies in your local neurodivergent group, there's usually one somewhere near you. (Even here on HN, it turns out.)
Yeah, I've tended to be more successful at things when my partner is keeping me in check, but she doesn't live with me so that's not very often :P We might end up with a house together in the not too distant future though
Nothing better than being able to rely on your partner, but really - do reach out. We're all friendly folks, ready to help each other.
I like that it is using a backplane architecture.
The OS made me wonder how far someone could get trying to create a GUI for the 6502. I suppose the Apple II (GS?) headed there before the Mac fully took the reins and the Apple II was left out to pasture.
Well the most well known one is Geos for the C64
https://youtu.be/_4nthOx8sA4?si=AiK9bRxRQwV3MB0f
There's also this Atari homebrew
https://youtu.be/T14dL9MeMHE?si=cGtsZGWILYi4jcql
And yes the IIGS had one
https://youtu.be/YvVFTpukAp0?si=UtvV3N_pKhxU-Tyb
One comment on the IIgs vs the C64; the IIgs had a 16-bit CPU and tons of RAM, so GS/OS is not necessarily representative of what is possible on a 6502.
https://www.a2desktop.com
http://toastytech.com/guis/a2geos.html
Yeah, the backplane immediately gives me S100 vibes.
I love this project! Kudos to the author.
Some day, whenever I have the money to skunkworks this properly, I've wanted to create something like a modern spiritual successor to the Atari ST with enhanced creature comforts.
Something with a CPU based on POWER architecture (like microwatt) with a simplified multicore design (no hyperthreading or weird BIG+little core design - just straightforward homogeneous cores), a simple expansion interface of some kind, and an OS baked into ROM. Then I'd consider it to be built around a long term support model, with one design that can last decades, complete with schematics, chip design reference guide, and an open specification so it can be easily cloned as desired.
Especially now that Moore's Law and Dennard Scaling has slowed down considerably, it could be a fun platform to target for education or the demoscene, instead of spec chasing.
I love the general backplane architecture, which gives it a look similar to Apple's canceled Jonathan project [0]
"Compiled languages can be used externally"
I realize that 8MB of RAM seems absurdly small to modern audiences, but I can assure you that I ran early versions of Turbo Pascal and compiled fine with 64K.
Creator here!
I know, i know! This is what makes me a bit sad. I dont know of any modern compiler i can use on the platform, as most hobby compilers target aarch64 or 32/64 bit x86.
What i need tho is a compiler that targets Arm/Thumb-2.
My research tells me that this confines me to: - A non-complete patch series for TCC (maybe) - LLVM - GCC
As twonof them obviously won't run on 8 MB, my options are stripped down to:
- Evaluate CBE and write my own backend and add 32 bit support - Write my own compiler + backend
Both options don't sound viable before the release as they would increase the scope greatly.
Considered the effort required to add Lua support to the platform? At least eLua would fit and probably provide a great environment for onboard development (i.e. non-crosscompiling...)
Lua is planned! It's an interpreted language with a lightweight compiler which is one of the next things on the "large scale" todo list!
Yeah, but Turbo Pascal was also a small language with limited size of binaries (remember overlays?).
> an expandable and hackable computer in the spirit of the 80's home computers
cool!
> Dual Core CPU
hm that will make for some interesting first steps in learning
The Parallax P8X32A Propeller (2006) did multi-core processing in a very beginner friendly way.
It can be done - if you take a holistic approach to hardware + runtime + development environment.
The Propeller probably failed because of the custom language, the custom assembly syntax, the custom ISA, the custom IDE font (!) etc. It was a very neat system though.
The Propeller was a commercial failure because it was a one-off part, from a small company, with very little software ecosystem surrounding it, a poor performance to price ratio, and no migration path if you needed more capabilities than it could provide.
Meh. Similar pricing and availability compared to its primary competitor at the time: Arduino.
It was just too unusual in too many ways.
In one way it’s a bit like the Amiga vs the 8088/8086 PC.
"Arduino" is a brand of development boards. The direct equivalent would be the Atmel* ATmega168, and that was widely available through distributors, less expensive, had extensive manufacturer and community support, and was part of a broad product line.
What makes microcontrollers commercially successful is... commercial use. Hobbyist applications are fun, but they don't pay the bills.
*: Microchip hadn't bought them yet
The context here is decidedly hobbyist/educational.
The propeller 2 is going to be used as the south bridge for the Ashet.
Nice!
Tbh having a seperate io core can simplify scheduling.
Agree. Most computers that are a joy to learn have a handful of controllers that operate in parallel. That is, multiple cores
The Apple II had a really cool disk drive because of how it did what it did with so little hardware. By relying on the single CPU for everything it was elegant, advanced, interesting... but perhaps not so easy to program.
https://www.bigmessowires.com/2021/11/12/the-amazing-disk-ii...
I believe you can ignore the 2nd core, and it will just stay dormant.
Along similar lines but physically much smaller, there are currently about 3 or 4 boards[1] that have RP2350, DVI, USB host, and SD card, ranging in cost from about $15 to $40.
A particular sweet spot is emulating 8 and 16 bit systems, as latency can be just as good as an FPGA setup. The infoNES emulator has been running on RP2040 for a while, and I see projects for Sega Master System, Genesis, Apple II, and Mac in the works. But you can also write much more powerful software natively.
Likely it will be possible to adapt software between these various RP2350 systems.
[1]: https://github.com/DusterTheFirst/pico-dvi-rs/wiki/RP2350-DV...
> To fund development for this critical next stage, we will launch a crowdfunding campaign on a platform such as Indiegogo or Kickstarter.
Great point. I highly recommend crowdsupply for this type of project (extremely technical target customers), especially if this is the first campaign you run, as their team is helping much more on the nuances of running a successful campaign.
(I know this is not the place for ads, and I’m not affiliated though I run crowdfunding campaigns on all the platforms mentioned.)
We have a stack of obsolete machines from e waste that we use for kids to build their own. Free and reusing dumped gear.
> Fully understandable by a single person, yet powerful enough to run a graphical desktop OS, it tries to bridge the gap between Arduinos and a RaspberryPi.
Considering this uses a RP2350, I am pretty sure that no single person on earth has a full understanding of this Computer.
The RP2350 is one hell of a tool, and I've seen it being used to solve some extremely thorny problems with great success.
So I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks who understand whats going on, especially if they approach their study of the Ashet from the perspective of the RP2350.
Basically, its one hell of a swiss army knife for building computer systems.
I can solve thorny problems using Linux on a Laptop too, that doesn't mean I understand even 1% of the system. Even a relatively simple modern Microcontroller is so extremely complex that I don't think a single person could describe every aspect of it in detail.
By way of anecdotal counterpoint, I've got a teenage trainee apprentice working in my lab who can indeed read the RP2350 datasheet and describe what its doing and how to use it effectively in other applications.
I don't think things are as difficult to understand as you do - but then again, I grew up with 8-bit computers where it really was competitively important to understand how they worked - and I don't think the cyclomatic complexity of the Ashet is much greater than anything from that era.
Reading and applying the datasheet doesn't mean understanding the whole system. I don't even think a single employee of Raspberry Pi Foundation entirely understands the chip. It's a combination of IP cores and work of many different people, and probably too complex for a single person.
He's still too young for something like this but I've been searching for something to use when we more properly introduce my son to computers. Using modern components to make something useful that still exposes the electronics side, encourages tinkering and exploration over media consumption, etc and it seems like a project like this could fit the bill nicely!
Creator here!
That sounds exactly what i had in mind, and i really wanna do the same when my boy is old enough for computers.
It's a teaching tool and a fun toy to tinker with
https://www.nand2tetris.org/
No doubt you've already looked into Ben Eater's various offerings (?).
I came across them (and they seem very cool!) but my working theory is that, in addition to more electronics heavy projects like those, I also want something that can fill the role of the apple ii plus that was the "family computer" when I was a kid without going straight to giving him access to a modern desktop/computer which feel so hermetic.
I'm somehow very confident in this while also being sure that people probably thought very similar things about home radios destroying the youth in the 1920s :D
Look into the RC2014 project then perhaps (https://rc2014.co.uk). It's been around for ten years of so — has quite an ecosystem already.
I think machines are more for adults and passionate teenagers than for children. But you can also look at the tulip creative computer that is more geared towards creative computing (especially music)
I'd like to sign up for their newsletter, but it appears I can't because I use a nonstandard TLD for my personal email (.info). Lame.
Strange, I was able to sign up from my .family email
Turns out the problem was on my end. Pihole blocked it.
i've been thinking about how to build a retro-style computer without any of the engineering compromises that made old machines so weird. lots of ideas, no progress. perhaps some sort of small riscv machine and a separate processor to manage the system (esp32) remotely, so you can always modify the filesystem or whatever from a bigger machine?
It looks really cool. Reminds me more of a 1970s S100 box, like the Altair or the IMSAI 8080.
Really cool and inspiring
>Fully understandable by one person
>Raspberry Pi RP2350 Main SoC
Yeah right.
Not ragging on the author, but I'm always confused whenever I see a "make your own computer" project like this that doesn't start with hardware first. I mean, there's already seems to be a quite advanced OS for it and some detailed docs, but no physical "computer" to speak of, just a lot of mockups.
Why a hardware project at that point and not a virtual machine like pico-8?
I'm just saying, its kinda the opposite approach a hardware person would take.
Creator here.
Please take a look at the gallery, where there are photos of the actual electronics setups!
Also don't the mechanical mockups count as hardware? A pile of jumperwires, breadboards and devices don't make a good hero image, but physical hardware mockups do.
Also the electronics design in its current form is actually iteration 5 of the system, while the OS development started with iteration 2.
The OS does boot on the electrical prototype
>A pile of jumperwires, breadboards and devices don't make a good hero image
I strongly disagree! Hardware people love seeing that sort of thing - the more guts you show, the better. It means you've gotten something to work and probably know what you're talking about. Take pride in what you have accomplished so far! Ideas and concepts are a dime a dozen; working hardware is a worthy milestone.
Note taken!
Will add a new "cleaned up" photo that isn't also entangled with kids stuff, and other desk content :D
Sadly, it really looks atrocious and it's currently a 3D build which is hard to photograph.
Add email notifications with updates on your progress. I won’t remember to come back and look at this for … maybe ever but I’d open and read a news letter on the progress
Creator here!
You can subscribe to the E-Mail newsletter linked on the front page (or on Community)
https://ashet.computer/hardware/ looks like hardware to me. While not all the manufacturing considerations have been addressed, there's a "functional cable clutter prototype", and you can build your own Ashet-compatible.
That all looks like renders and diagrams to me. Dime a dozen, as has been said.
https://ashet.computer/gallery/img/ashet-hc-devsetup-02.jpg looks like hardware!
Got an Amiga and Trumpcard you can have cheap.