Whenever I see these articles on HN, I'm now primed into thinking "it means rats brains" and I'm usually right. I truly appreciate the research in this and other fields (e.g. Alzheimer), but clickbait titles like those give false hopes to readers who may have friends or relatives suffering from real conditions. Please make it clear that we're talking about _rats_ and it may take years for those researches to be available to us _human beings_.
I have much empathy for your false hopes, given my own memory loss over the years (I am 69). That being said, I do not consider it clickbait to say "Scientists find ways to boost memory in aging brains". Anyone familiar with work in the field understands that if it is genuinely about "human" brains or even "hominid" brains, then that would be specified. To talk generically about "memory in aging brains" is not IMO misleading.
I feel much of your criticism rests with HN - the length of titles is quite restrictive and the initial post (which in this case specified "restoring memory in older rats") usually gets buried with more popular dominating comments. Don't get me wrong, I think the weighting of comments in HN is one of its best features. Other comment systems providing for the "pinning" of the initial comment by the OP - not sure if this is possible on HN?
At 45, this is something that scares me about using AI to write code for me. I view my job not just as a rewarding problem-solving challenge, but also as a vital form of exercise, possibly the only thing in my life that unites my creative brain with my mathematical brain and forces them to work together. I've watched so many family members descend into alzheimers and dementia. My father, who's 89, still reads two newspapers a day, and I think it keeps him sharper than he would be otherwise. But without the goal of solving problems, I think we begin to degenerate. And no one really wants to deal with problems... it's the job that keeps you fit.
So I think just with famous games we can see that billions of people love to "deal with problems". Games by definition are problems we love to solve. They can be solo, duel, last one standing, 2 teams, N teams, synchronous, asynchronous, turn by turn, etc.
This makes me think on the contrary we are addicted to solving problems. The question then IMHO is more... what are the right problems for you? How do you keep on being challenged just the right way?
I'm not so sure. I think cause and effect might be otherwise - either you quit working when you go gaga, or both are a function of age. Certainly my relatives stayed sharp after retiring but often went a bit demented around 85-90.
Do you have any opinion on rote work, for example data entry, or stuff like scanning the incoming checks or mail for a small office, filing papers, etc.? I sometimes worry that this type of work isn't as much of a brain challenge, but maybe there are some people who don't mind it so much because it gives them time to think.
I think this way about playing the piano. I'm primarily a guitarist so the piano is a bit of a challenge for me. I use it as a way to force my memory to think in challenging ways and commit complex content.
Grampa got a little weird at 94. But that was a long to live, and at point he most of the diseases including most of the cancers. He passed just after his tiny 15 year old dog passed. Gramps I still miss you, stubborn old man. Grama was my favorite though.
Dogs are important. I'm old, and I have two. Wagging tails & licks when I come home are really important, a claim I make comfortably without objective evidence.
Quality of life is very meaningful in the context of lifespan. I suppose that's why the term 'health span' has become more popular. Why live longer if you or the people you love can't enjoy it?
I definitely hit my coding peak somewhere in my late 30s. I don’t know how much slower I actually am, vs how much less I care. For one, I care to not write code that I’m not going to use. I spend way more time planning, talking about, and mulling over the thing I want to build, and I generally get it right the first time. Maybe part of the lesson of experience is not being in such a rush. Second, I’ve written so much code that I just don’t care as much about that activity as I used to. When I’m properly motivated to do something I still feel quick and energetic. I’m learning ASL with my girlfriend and she’s frustrated that I move faster than her, at some 13 years her senior. Maybe it will catch up to me eventually.
These statements really ring home when i'm thinking about my 20s and coding.
Back then, i'd dive right in, start coding, prove what works, figure it out as I go, then have to adapt the existing code to the figured out design. I was much more attached to that code and didn't want to lose it. Today, if I write code, I plan it out, have a good idea of how the pieces will work and then go implement it. And honestly, if the code gets thrown away, it's not the end of the world.
Code is really a small portion of what engineers do...
Alas, perhaps those are inherent trade-offs, with experience also serving as baggage. After all, how would you code a lookup table that can grow indefinitely with no slowdown?
Fair point, and one of particular interest to me, age 76.
I find my short-term memory is in decline, magnitude depending on specific circumstances. This annoys me, and to a lesser degree, my wife as well. Really, where did I put that damned can opener?
But I also find my ability to find connections among phenomena in my technical field has markedly increased. In addition to my subjective perception, there's an outside measure, the annual rate of patent applications my employer files on my disclosures, and consequent cash bonuses. About a factor of 4x compared to when I was 60. As well (per my wife's telling), I'm better at remembering anniversaries and other significant dates in our lives and those of our family & friends. Anecdata, of course.
I'd say my age-related 'decline' has been uneven regarding details of cognition/memory, and at the moment provides me and my loved ones a better quality of life - certainly not what I expected decades earlier. It's complicated, and I'll be interested to see what more the posted research leads to.
Thanks for your data points. They are quite encouraging. I was blessed with the ability to remember way more information that most of my peers. Now that I have lost some of that ability, I still retain quite a bit, with slower retrieval times usually. Over all, I really have no room to complain. ( although I still do). The skill I value the most though is finding those connections you speak of. I currently don't have a feel for how that has changed, but I think I am still good to go in that department.
That'd make a good sci-fi story. A world where science can keep anyone alive almost indefinitely but not their full faculties. So you get more and more "zombies" of barely alive senile elderly.
Also if I was a writer I'd call it "Congress" and have it start with senators. ;)
Not with regard to the acute mental decline of Alz or dementia, which seemingly are a lot of trauma for many involved, but perhaps there is some adaptive function to slight memory loss with aging? Maybe old people don't want to remember everything? Idk.
If reincarnation is real, that involves a total memory loss at the terminal age limit, so that is somehow adaptive, allowing a new growth of life. Maybe slight memory loss in the aged allows a refresh or new growth of life. A sort of lightening of the burden, perhaps? To let the aged evolve into a new phase of life? Letting go of the past?
There could be something to that. The wisdom of the elderly may be related to an ability of such pruning to permit sight of the forest for the trees, the gaining of perspective.
I think the reality is that the brain is an organ and loses functionality in old age, similar to the heart, lungs, liver, skin, whatever you want to name. Lifestyle plays a significant role and I think you’ll find that people that take care of themselves and have less loss of functionality are significantly happier and wiser in their old age. I do think that there’s adaptive functionality in hormonal changes though
Quoted from Article: If we can understand what’s driving it at the molecular level, we can start to understand what goes wrong in dementia and eventually use that knowledge to guide new approaches to treatment.
Hopefull.
Basically a state that is believed to be a "good state", and anything outside of that state is a "bad state". Its like changing the air filter on a car when it's not running right, but it just happened to need an air filter but the real problem is the fuel injector and the rubber hoses deteriorating.
I am imagining my mind recalling and replaying the 'greatest hits of dumb stuff davidw did' more frequently after this treatment and I don't really like the idea.
You get downvoted, but you are not wrong. People with various anxiety disorders have this problem - and keep remembering all the small mistakes they did in life over the good memories.
Virginia Tech researchers have shown that memory loss in aging may be reversible. Using CRISPR tools, they corrected molecular disruptions in the hippocampus and amygdala, restoring memory in older rats. Another experiment revived a silenced memory gene, IGF2, through targeted DNA methylation editing. These findings highlight that aging brains can regain function through precise molecular intervention.
Whenever I see these articles on HN, I'm now primed into thinking "it means rats brains" and I'm usually right. I truly appreciate the research in this and other fields (e.g. Alzheimer), but clickbait titles like those give false hopes to readers who may have friends or relatives suffering from real conditions. Please make it clear that we're talking about _rats_ and it may take years for those researches to be available to us _human beings_.
We’ve got so many enhancements for rat brains available, maybe they are running the place at this point.
Most certainly, if you follow the news in politics
I have much empathy for your false hopes, given my own memory loss over the years (I am 69). That being said, I do not consider it clickbait to say "Scientists find ways to boost memory in aging brains". Anyone familiar with work in the field understands that if it is genuinely about "human" brains or even "hominid" brains, then that would be specified. To talk generically about "memory in aging brains" is not IMO misleading.
I feel much of your criticism rests with HN - the length of titles is quite restrictive and the initial post (which in this case specified "restoring memory in older rats") usually gets buried with more popular dominating comments. Don't get me wrong, I think the weighting of comments in HN is one of its best features. Other comment systems providing for the "pinning" of the initial comment by the OP - not sure if this is possible on HN?
I don't necessarily want to live forever, but god I would love to have a quick brain for the rest of my life.
At 45, this is something that scares me about using AI to write code for me. I view my job not just as a rewarding problem-solving challenge, but also as a vital form of exercise, possibly the only thing in my life that unites my creative brain with my mathematical brain and forces them to work together. I've watched so many family members descend into alzheimers and dementia. My father, who's 89, still reads two newspapers a day, and I think it keeps him sharper than he would be otherwise. But without the goal of solving problems, I think we begin to degenerate. And no one really wants to deal with problems... it's the job that keeps you fit.
> no one really wants to deal with problems... it's the job that keeps you fit.
Is it though? "it is estimated that the number of Chess players is about 800 million globally." according to https://www.chessjournal.com/how-many-chess-players-are-ther... I've read ~600M for Mahjong, CS/PUBG/etc right now tally up to few millions on Steam via https://steamcharts.com etc.
So I think just with famous games we can see that billions of people love to "deal with problems". Games by definition are problems we love to solve. They can be solo, duel, last one standing, 2 teams, N teams, synchronous, asynchronous, turn by turn, etc.
This makes me think on the contrary we are addicted to solving problems. The question then IMHO is more... what are the right problems for you? How do you keep on being challenged just the right way?
>it's the job that keeps you fit
I'm not so sure. I think cause and effect might be otherwise - either you quit working when you go gaga, or both are a function of age. Certainly my relatives stayed sharp after retiring but often went a bit demented around 85-90.
There's evidence at least some dementia is related to infections which may be easier to fix than other things. (as in https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024/dec/01/the-bra...)
Do you have any opinion on rote work, for example data entry, or stuff like scanning the incoming checks or mail for a small office, filing papers, etc.? I sometimes worry that this type of work isn't as much of a brain challenge, but maybe there are some people who don't mind it so much because it gives them time to think.
I think this way about playing the piano. I'm primarily a guitarist so the piano is a bit of a challenge for me. I use it as a way to force my memory to think in challenging ways and commit complex content.
Read books, learn instruments. Lots of things use your brain that you can do.
Grampa got a little weird at 94. But that was a long to live, and at point he most of the diseases including most of the cancers. He passed just after his tiny 15 year old dog passed. Gramps I still miss you, stubborn old man. Grama was my favorite though.
Dogs are important. I'm old, and I have two. Wagging tails & licks when I come home are really important, a claim I make comfortably without objective evidence.
Quality of life is very meaningful in the context of lifespan. I suppose that's why the term 'health span' has become more popular. Why live longer if you or the people you love can't enjoy it?
I'm not even talking about that. I'd love to pound out code like I'm my late 30s the rest of my life.
In fact, it would probably be better than that. I'd be as quick as I was in my 20s but have the experience and knowledge of someone much older.
I definitely hit my coding peak somewhere in my late 30s. I don’t know how much slower I actually am, vs how much less I care. For one, I care to not write code that I’m not going to use. I spend way more time planning, talking about, and mulling over the thing I want to build, and I generally get it right the first time. Maybe part of the lesson of experience is not being in such a rush. Second, I’ve written so much code that I just don’t care as much about that activity as I used to. When I’m properly motivated to do something I still feel quick and energetic. I’m learning ASL with my girlfriend and she’s frustrated that I move faster than her, at some 13 years her senior. Maybe it will catch up to me eventually.
These statements really ring home when i'm thinking about my 20s and coding.
Back then, i'd dive right in, start coding, prove what works, figure it out as I go, then have to adapt the existing code to the figured out design. I was much more attached to that code and didn't want to lose it. Today, if I write code, I plan it out, have a good idea of how the pieces will work and then go implement it. And honestly, if the code gets thrown away, it's not the end of the world.
Code is really a small portion of what engineers do...
Chess players peak in their late 30s too.
Alas, perhaps those are inherent trade-offs, with experience also serving as baggage. After all, how would you code a lookup table that can grow indefinitely with no slowdown?
Pruning
more and more i realize that intelligence is a memory-bound process
Fair point, and one of particular interest to me, age 76.
I find my short-term memory is in decline, magnitude depending on specific circumstances. This annoys me, and to a lesser degree, my wife as well. Really, where did I put that damned can opener?
But I also find my ability to find connections among phenomena in my technical field has markedly increased. In addition to my subjective perception, there's an outside measure, the annual rate of patent applications my employer files on my disclosures, and consequent cash bonuses. About a factor of 4x compared to when I was 60. As well (per my wife's telling), I'm better at remembering anniversaries and other significant dates in our lives and those of our family & friends. Anecdata, of course.
I'd say my age-related 'decline' has been uneven regarding details of cognition/memory, and at the moment provides me and my loved ones a better quality of life - certainly not what I expected decades earlier. It's complicated, and I'll be interested to see what more the posted research leads to.
Thanks for your data points. They are quite encouraging. I was blessed with the ability to remember way more information that most of my peers. Now that I have lost some of that ability, I still retain quite a bit, with slower retrieval times usually. Over all, I really have no room to complain. ( although I still do). The skill I value the most though is finding those connections you speak of. I currently don't have a feel for how that has changed, but I think I am still good to go in that department.
That'd make a good sci-fi story. A world where science can keep anyone alive almost indefinitely but not their full faculties. So you get more and more "zombies" of barely alive senile elderly.
Also if I was a writer I'd call it "Congress" and have it start with senators. ;)
I can't tell you how frustrating it is to realize you are not as sharp as you used to be.
Looking forward to seeing the same generation of biohackers who previously CRISPRed their lactose intolerance to now CRISPR their hippocampi!
For those curious, that is @thethoughtemporium on youtube.
"In mice", I thought to myself. But then I read the article - and how wrong I was!
Rats. I thought it'd be mice too.
but what about my senile mice? please, won't somebody think of them??
Not with regard to the acute mental decline of Alz or dementia, which seemingly are a lot of trauma for many involved, but perhaps there is some adaptive function to slight memory loss with aging? Maybe old people don't want to remember everything? Idk.
If reincarnation is real, that involves a total memory loss at the terminal age limit, so that is somehow adaptive, allowing a new growth of life. Maybe slight memory loss in the aged allows a refresh or new growth of life. A sort of lightening of the burden, perhaps? To let the aged evolve into a new phase of life? Letting go of the past?
There could be something to that. The wisdom of the elderly may be related to an ability of such pruning to permit sight of the forest for the trees, the gaining of perspective.
I think the reality is that the brain is an organ and loses functionality in old age, similar to the heart, lungs, liver, skin, whatever you want to name. Lifestyle plays a significant role and I think you’ll find that people that take care of themselves and have less loss of functionality are significantly happier and wiser in their old age. I do think that there’s adaptive functionality in hormonal changes though
Quoted from Article: If we can understand what’s driving it at the molecular level, we can start to understand what goes wrong in dementia and eventually use that knowledge to guide new approaches to treatment. Hopefull.
It’s about our quality of life.. not about longevity.
> It’s about our quality of life.. not about longevity.
I'll take quality of life over longevity. Sure. But I am really hoping for both.
Why not both?
Basically a state that is believed to be a "good state", and anything outside of that state is a "bad state". Its like changing the air filter on a car when it's not running right, but it just happened to need an air filter but the real problem is the fuel injector and the rubber hoses deteriorating.
I guess in 10 years I'll forget to check whether they are at a phase 1 trial.
My aunt suffers from memory loss. I sincerely hope breakthroughs like this can make a real difference soon.
With my luck it'd replay that one time I did the stupid thing in high school more frequently.
"that one time I did the stupid thing in high school"? I think most highschoolers do a stupid thing about every eighteen minutes. You did great!
I am imagining my mind recalling and replaying the 'greatest hits of dumb stuff davidw did' more frequently after this treatment and I don't really like the idea.
Almost 20 years after high school here..I am still stupid
You get downvoted, but you are not wrong. People with various anxiety disorders have this problem - and keep remembering all the small mistakes they did in life over the good memories.
archived: https://archive.ph/lTmx4 (heh)
Funny how nobody has used CRISPR to make the body naturally produce caffeine…
Tolerance.
In rats
Download more ram!
Pill now please.
Virginia Tech researchers have shown that memory loss in aging may be reversible. Using CRISPR tools, they corrected molecular disruptions in the hippocampus and amygdala, restoring memory in older rats. Another experiment revived a silenced memory gene, IGF2, through targeted DNA methylation editing. These findings highlight that aging brains can regain function through precise molecular intervention.
Euehshsns