After some work with kubernetes, i must really say, helm is a complexity hell. I'm sure it has much features but many aren't needed but increase the complexity nonetheless.
Also, please fix the "default" helm chart template, it's a nightmare of options and values no beginner understands. Make it basic and simple.
Nowadays i would very much prefer to just use terraform for kubernetes deployments, especially if you use terraform anyway!
Helm is my example of where DevOps lost it's way. The insanity of multiple tiers on templating an invisible char scoped language... it blows my mind that so many of us just deal with it
Nowadays I'm using CUE in front of TF & k8s, in part because I have workloads that need a bit of both and share config. I emit tf.json and Yaml as needed from a single source of truth
I've been trying to apply CUE to my work, but the tooling just isn't there for much of what I need yet. It also seems really short-sighted that it is implemented in Go which is notoriously bad for embedding.
> CUE was a fork of the Go compiler (Marcel was on the Go team at the time and wanted to reuse much of the infra within the codebase)
Ah, that makes sense, I guess. I also get the feeling that the language itself is still under very active development, so until 1.0 is released I don't think it matters too much what it's implemented in.
> Also, so much of the k8s ecosystem is in Go that it was a natural choice.
That might turn out to be a costly decision, imho. I wanted to use CUE to manage a repository of schema definitions, and from these I wanted to generate other formats, such as JSON schemas, with constraints hopefully taken from the high-level CUE.
I figured I'd try and hack something together, but it was a complete non-starter since I don't work within the Go ecosystem.
Projects like the cue language live and breathe from an active community with related tooling, so the decision still really boggles my mind.
I'll stay optimistic and hope that once it reaches 1.0, someone will write an implementation that is easily embedded for my use-cases. I won't hold my breath though, since the scope is getting quite big.
Back when my job involved using Kubernetes and Helm, the solution I found was to use `| toJson` instead: it generates one line that happens to be valid YAML as well.
I don't think I've ever seen a Helm template that didn't invoke nightmares. Probably the biggest reason I moved away from Kubernetes in the first place.
We have several Helm charts we've written at my job and they are very pleasant to use. They are just normal k8s templates with a couple of values parameterized, and they work great. The ones people put out for public consumption are very complex, but it isn't like Helm charts have to be that complex.
In my book the main problem with Helm charts is that every customization option needs to be implemented by the chart that way. There is no way for chart consumer to change anything the chart author did not allow to be changed. That leads to these overly complex and config heavy charts people publish - just to make sure everything is customizable for consumers.
I'd love something that works more like Kustomize but with other benefits of Helm charts (packaging, distribution via OCI, more straight forward value interpolation than overlays and patches, ...). So far none have ticked all my boxes.
fluxCD brings a really nice helm-controller that will allow to change manifests via a postRenderers stub while still allowing to use regular helm tooling against the cluster.
Yeah, but then it is yet another layer of configuration slapped on top of the previous layer of configuration. That can't be the best solution, can it? Same thing for piping helm template through Kustomize.
That's generally what I try to push for in my company.
A single purpose chart for your project is generally a lot easier to grok and consume vs what can be done.
I think the likes of "kustomize" is probably a more sane route to go down. But our entire infrastructure is already helm so hard to switch that all out.
I'm ashamed to say it but I cannot for the life of me understand how kustomize works. I could not ever figure out how to do things outside the "hello world" tutorials they walk you through. I'm not a stupid person (citation needed lol), but trying to understand the kustomize docs made me feel incredibly stupid. That's why we didn't go with that instead of Helm.
Yes, this is the key. Helm charts should basically be manifests with some light customization.
Helm is not good enough to develop abstractions with. So go the opposite way: keep it stupid simple.
Pairing helm with Kustomize can help a lot as well. You do most of the templating in the helm chart but you have an escape hatch if you need more patches.
Infrastructure as code should from the beginning have been through a strict typed language with solid dependency and packaging contract.
I know that there are solutions like CDK and SST that attempt this, but because the underlying mechanisms are not native to those solutions, it's simply not enough, and the resulting interfaces are still way too brittle and complex.
I mean terraform provides this but using it doesn't give a whole lot of value, at least IME. I enforce types but often an upstream provider implementation will break that convention. It's rarely the fault of the IAC itself and usually the fault of the upstream service when things get annoying.
I don't think I want to use kubernetes (or anything that uses it) again. Nightmare of broken glass. Back in the day Docker Compose gave me 95% of what I wanted and the complexity was basically one file with few surprises.
Docker the company bet big on Swarm being the de facto container orchestration platform for businesses. It just got completely overshadowed by k8s. Swarm continues to exist and be actively developed, but it’s doomed to fade into obscurity.
If you can confidently get it done with docker-compose, you shouldn't even think about using k8s IMO. Completely different scales.
K8s isn't for running containers, it's for implementing complex distributed systems: tenancy/isolation and dynamic scaling and no-downtime service models.
Helm is sort of like a docker (or maybe docker compose) for k8s, in terms of a helm chart is a prepackaged k8s "application" that you can ship to your cluster. It got very popular very quickly because of the ease of use, and I think that was premature which affects its day-to-day usability.
Helm is truly a fractal of design pain. Even the description as a "package manager" is a verifiable lie - it's a config management tool at best.
Any tool that encourages templating on top of YAML, in a way that prevents the use of tools like yamllint on them, is a bad tool. Ansible learned this lesson much earlier and changed syntax of playbooks so that their YAML passes lint.
Additionally, K8s core developers don't like it and keep inventing things like Kustomize and similar that have better designs.
Seriously. I’ve lost at least 100 hours of my life debugging whitespace in templated yaml. I shudder to think about the total engineering time wasted since yaml’s invention.
Helm, and a lot of devops tooling, is fundamentally broken.
The core problem is that it is a templating language and not a fully functional programming language, or at least a DSL.
This leads us to the mess we are in today. Here is a fun experiment: Go open 10 helm charts, and compare the differences between them. You will find they have the same copy-paste bullshit everywhere.
Helm simply does not provide powerful enough tools to develop proper abstractions. This leads to massive sprawl when defining our infrastructure. This leads to the DevOps nightmare we have all found ourselves in.
I have developed complex systems in Pulumi and other CDKs: 99% of the text just GOES AWAY and everything is way more legible.
You are not going to create a robust solution with a weak templating language. You are just going to create more and more sprawl.
Maybe the answer is a CDK that outputs helm charts.
Imagine 1,000s of helm charts. Your only abstraction tools are an umbrella chart or a library chart. There isn't much more in helm.
I liked KRO's model a lot but stringly typed text templating at the scale of thousands of services doesn't work, it's not fun when you need to make a change. I kinda like jsonnet plus the google cli i forget the name of right now, and the abstraction the Grafana folks did too but ultimately i decided to roll my own thing and leaned heavily into type safety for this. It's ideal. With any luck i can open source it. There's a few similar ideas floating around now - Scala Yaga is one.
Came here to feel the temperature of the comments, and unsurprisingly, most folks seem to have plenty of gripes with Helm.
A Helm chart is often a poorly documented abstraction layer which often makes it impossible to relate back the managed application's original documentation to the Helm chart's "interface". The number of times I had to grep through the templates to figure out how to access a specific setting ...
> Update any automation that uses these renamed CLI flags.
I wish software providers like this would realize how fucking obnoxious this is. Why not support both? Seriously, leave the old, create a new one. Why put this burden on your users?
It doesn't sound like a big deal but in practice it's often a massive pain in the ass.
I think what Charts v3 will be is still an open question. According to the current accepted HIPs[0], there is some groundwork to in general enable a new generation of a chart format via HIP-0020, and most HIPs after that contain some parts that are planned to make it into Charts v3 (e.g. resource creation sequencing via HIP-0025).
After some work with kubernetes, i must really say, helm is a complexity hell. I'm sure it has much features but many aren't needed but increase the complexity nonetheless.
Also, please fix the "default" helm chart template, it's a nightmare of options and values no beginner understands. Make it basic and simple.
Nowadays i would very much prefer to just use terraform for kubernetes deployments, especially if you use terraform anyway!
Helm is my example of where DevOps lost it's way. The insanity of multiple tiers on templating an invisible char scoped language... it blows my mind that so many of us just deal with it
Nowadays I'm using CUE in front of TF & k8s, in part because I have workloads that need a bit of both and share config. I emit tf.json and Yaml as needed from a single source of truth
shudders.. `| nindent 12`..
I've been trying to apply CUE to my work, but the tooling just isn't there for much of what I need yet. It also seems really short-sighted that it is implemented in Go which is notoriously bad for embedding.
> seems really short-sighted that it is implemented in Go
CUE was a fork of the Go compiler (Marcel was on the Go team at the time and wanted to reuse much of the infra within the codebase)
Also, so much of the k8s ecosystem is in Go that it was a natural choice.
> CUE was a fork of the Go compiler (Marcel was on the Go team at the time and wanted to reuse much of the infra within the codebase)
Ah, that makes sense, I guess. I also get the feeling that the language itself is still under very active development, so until 1.0 is released I don't think it matters too much what it's implemented in.
> Also, so much of the k8s ecosystem is in Go that it was a natural choice.
That might turn out to be a costly decision, imho. I wanted to use CUE to manage a repository of schema definitions, and from these I wanted to generate other formats, such as JSON schemas, with constraints hopefully taken from the high-level CUE.
I figured I'd try and hack something together, but it was a complete non-starter since I don't work within the Go ecosystem.
Projects like the cue language live and breathe from an active community with related tooling, so the decision still really boggles my mind.
I'll stay optimistic and hope that once it reaches 1.0, someone will write an implementation that is easily embedded for my use-cases. I won't hold my breath though, since the scope is getting quite big.
Back when my job involved using Kubernetes and Helm, the solution I found was to use `| toJson` instead: it generates one line that happens to be valid YAML as well.
RIP Ksonnet, we hardly knew what we were missing
jsonnet is the main DX issue therein
I don't think I've ever seen a Helm template that didn't invoke nightmares. Probably the biggest reason I moved away from Kubernetes in the first place.
We have several Helm charts we've written at my job and they are very pleasant to use. They are just normal k8s templates with a couple of values parameterized, and they work great. The ones people put out for public consumption are very complex, but it isn't like Helm charts have to be that complex.
In my book the main problem with Helm charts is that every customization option needs to be implemented by the chart that way. There is no way for chart consumer to change anything the chart author did not allow to be changed. That leads to these overly complex and config heavy charts people publish - just to make sure everything is customizable for consumers.
I'd love something that works more like Kustomize but with other benefits of Helm charts (packaging, distribution via OCI, more straight forward value interpolation than overlays and patches, ...). So far none have ticked all my boxes.
fluxCD brings a really nice helm-controller that will allow to change manifests via a postRenderers stub while still allowing to use regular helm tooling against the cluster.
https://fluxcd.io/flux/components/helm/helmreleases/#post-re...
Yeah, but then it is yet another layer of configuration slapped on top of the previous layer of configuration. That can't be the best solution, can it? Same thing for piping helm template through Kustomize.
That's generally what I try to push for in my company.
A single purpose chart for your project is generally a lot easier to grok and consume vs what can be done.
I think the likes of "kustomize" is probably a more sane route to go down. But our entire infrastructure is already helm so hard to switch that all out.
I'm ashamed to say it but I cannot for the life of me understand how kustomize works. I could not ever figure out how to do things outside the "hello world" tutorials they walk you through. I'm not a stupid person (citation needed lol), but trying to understand the kustomize docs made me feel incredibly stupid. That's why we didn't go with that instead of Helm.
Yes, this is the key. Helm charts should basically be manifests with some light customization.
Helm is not good enough to develop abstractions with. So go the opposite way: keep it stupid simple.
Pairing helm with Kustomize can help a lot as well. You do most of the templating in the helm chart but you have an escape hatch if you need more patches.
What did you move to?
Infrastructure as code should from the beginning have been through a strict typed language with solid dependency and packaging contract.
I know that there are solutions like CDK and SST that attempt this, but because the underlying mechanisms are not native to those solutions, it's simply not enough, and the resulting interfaces are still way too brittle and complex.
I mean terraform provides this but using it doesn't give a whole lot of value, at least IME. I enforce types but often an upstream provider implementation will break that convention. It's rarely the fault of the IAC itself and usually the fault of the upstream service when things get annoying.
I don't think I want to use kubernetes (or anything that uses it) again. Nightmare of broken glass. Back in the day Docker Compose gave me 95% of what I wanted and the complexity was basically one file with few surprises.
Docker Compose still takes you 95% of what you need. I wish Docker Swarm survived.
> I wish Docker Swarm survived.
I heard good things about Nomad (albeit from before Hashicorp changed their licenses): https://developer.hashicorp.com/nomad
I got the impression it was like a smaller, more opinionated k8s. Like a mix between Docker Swarm and k8s.
It's rare that I see it mentioned though, so I'm not sure how big the community is.
What happened to it?
I'm still using it with not a single issue (except when is messes up the iptables rules)
I still confidently, upgrade the docker across all the nodes, workers and managers and it just works. Not a single time that it caused an issue.
Docker the company bet big on Swarm being the de facto container orchestration platform for businesses. It just got completely overshadowed by k8s. Swarm continues to exist and be actively developed, but it’s doomed to fade into obscurity.
For some reason I assumed it was unsupported. That doesn't seem to be the case.
The original iteration of Docker Swarm, now known as Classic, is deprecated. Maybe you were thinking of that?
As I read more about it, yes, that is indeed the case.
If you can confidently get it done with docker-compose, you shouldn't even think about using k8s IMO. Completely different scales.
K8s isn't for running containers, it's for implementing complex distributed systems: tenancy/isolation and dynamic scaling and no-downtime service models.
Could you explain this a bit? Is helm optional part of the k8s stack?
Helm is not official or blessed or anything, just another third party tool people install after install k8s.
Yes, you really don't need to use helm if you have terraform. Just use https://registry.terraform.io/providers/hashicorp/kubernetes... .
If you used helm + terraform before, you'll have no problem understanding the terraform kubernetes provider (as opposed to the helm provider).
Helm is sort of like a docker (or maybe docker compose) for k8s, in terms of a helm chart is a prepackaged k8s "application" that you can ship to your cluster. It got very popular very quickly because of the ease of use, and I think that was premature which affects its day-to-day usability.
Do you have any resources regarding using tf to handle deployments ?
I’d love to dig a bit.
Just use https://registry.terraform.io/providers/hashicorp/kubernetes... instead of helm...
The kubernetes provider mostly just works exactly as you expect
Helm is truly a fractal of design pain. Even the description as a "package manager" is a verifiable lie - it's a config management tool at best.
Any tool that encourages templating on top of YAML, in a way that prevents the use of tools like yamllint on them, is a bad tool. Ansible learned this lesson much earlier and changed syntax of playbooks so that their YAML passes lint.
Additionally, K8s core developers don't like it and keep inventing things like Kustomize and similar that have better designs.
Imho, anyone who thought putting 'templating language' and 'significant whitespace' together is a good idea deserves to be in the Hague
Seriously. I’ve lost at least 100 hours of my life debugging whitespace in templated yaml. I shudder to think about the total engineering time wasted since yaml’s invention.
Yaml wouldn't be so bad if they made the templates and editors indent-aware.
Which is a thing with some Python IDEs, but it's maddening to work on anything that can't do this.
Can I hear from those of you who have had a good IAC experience? What tools worked well?
Helm sucks.
Helm, and a lot of devops tooling, is fundamentally broken.
The core problem is that it is a templating language and not a fully functional programming language, or at least a DSL.
This leads us to the mess we are in today. Here is a fun experiment: Go open 10 helm charts, and compare the differences between them. You will find they have the same copy-paste bullshit everywhere.
Helm simply does not provide powerful enough tools to develop proper abstractions. This leads to massive sprawl when defining our infrastructure. This leads to the DevOps nightmare we have all found ourselves in.
I have developed complex systems in Pulumi and other CDKs: 99% of the text just GOES AWAY and everything is way more legible.
You are not going to create a robust solution with a weak templating language. You are just going to create more and more sprawl.
Maybe the answer is a CDK that outputs helm charts.
Imagine 1,000s of helm charts. Your only abstraction tools are an umbrella chart or a library chart. There isn't much more in helm.
I liked KRO's model a lot but stringly typed text templating at the scale of thousands of services doesn't work, it's not fun when you need to make a change. I kinda like jsonnet plus the google cli i forget the name of right now, and the abstraction the Grafana folks did too but ultimately i decided to roll my own thing and leaned heavily into type safety for this. It's ideal. With any luck i can open source it. There's a few similar ideas floating around now - Scala Yaga is one.
Came here to feel the temperature of the comments, and unsurprisingly, most folks seem to have plenty of gripes with Helm.
A Helm chart is often a poorly documented abstraction layer which often makes it impossible to relate back the managed application's original documentation to the Helm chart's "interface". The number of times I had to grep through the templates to figure out how to access a specific setting ...
> CLI Flags renamed
> Some common CLI flags are renamed:
> --atomic → --rollback-on-failure > --force → --force-replace
> Update any automation that uses these renamed CLI flags.
I wish software providers like this would realize how fucking obnoxious this is. Why not support both? Seriously, leave the old, create a new one. Why put this burden on your users?
It doesn't sound like a big deal but in practice it's often a massive pain in the ass.
Now that you'll are here, has anyone tried timoni as an alternative to helm? I have it in my to-try-tools.
https://github.com/stefanprodan/timoni
No commits in 3 months.
What is Charts v3? Please tell me it is LUA support.
I think what Charts v3 will be is still an open question. According to the current accepted HIPs[0], there is some groundwork to in general enable a new generation of a chart format via HIP-0020, and most HIPs after that contain some parts that are planned to make it into Charts v3 (e.g. resource creation sequencing via HIP-0025).
[0]: https://github.com/helm/community/tree/main/hips
Ugh, can we all just agree to stop using helm
would be nice, but we would also have to reimplement all of the charts we use, big ask/lift
DevOps has more friction for tooling changes because of the large blast radius
What do you prefer?
Just straight raw manifest files.
How do you have anything dynamic? How do you handle any differences at all between your infrastructure and what the authors built it for.
Sorry, raw manifests and kustomize and a soupçon of regret.