That makes a ton of sense except one killer flaw - literally killer.
People will put off buying new tires to dangerous extents. Yes Some people already do that, but adding any meaningful fee/tax on new tires will most certainly lead to people drawing out replacements and causing severe accidents.
Unfortunately many states (north eastern states that spread salt on their roads I’m looking at you) have rolled back their safety inspections - but this is the perfect application of a reasonable state-sanctioned activity. Tax tires, inspect vehicles, write fixit tickets, and let insurance handle the rest of the edge cases where deadbeats caused harm with their slick-tired jalopies.
This is not a very compelling argument. Things already cost money. We wouldn’t oppose a water tax because we were worried people might refuse to hydrate themselves once water was marginally more expensive. It might marginally exacerbate an existing problem, but the benefit of solving the target problem (funding roads fairly), even if imperfectly, is a much greater good
respectfully sir, I think that their argument might be a bit compelling. The reason why a water tax works but a tire tax wouldn't work is that well.. you can't live without water but you can live with bad tires until you don't (with accidents)
but people will simply just say, oh this wouldn't happen to me, life already has so many complications and people would simply postpone the tires.
Now granted, all of this depends upon the amount of taxes, the financial situations and greater analysis of the argument but I wouldn't throw mint5's argument completely.
It is funny but people will buy vice even if it might be taxed but people are simply less likely to do actual preventive measures depending on how much they cost.
I think its because we all have this belief that nothing bad might happen to us until it does and we take things for granted. There must be an effect named after it (survivorship bias? or we think we are the main character or something similar, superman effect?, not sure.)
Is tire damage proportional to the same figure? If so, heavier cars will naturally require more tire replacements and tire tax collection will more or less match contribution to road wear
... In my experience, not necessarily, especially when it comes to good EV driving habits and a decently designed EV.
By that I mean, if you're driving an EV (or hybrid, to a large extent) properly you are going to be relying on regen braking by default, and if the EV is smart enough, it's going to do at least some limiting of power delivery to minimize wheel skip/etc on even aggressive acceleration.
As anecdata, my Hybrid weighs about 20% more than my first car, yet I've gotten more miles out of my tires than I did on that old Saturn. [0]
Said hybrid weighs close to a Model 3.
[0] - The Subaru doesn't have good data here, because it has the worst luck for killing a tire mid-life with a sidewall puncture/damage and then requires replacing all 4 anyway.
Weight is only one dimension. What matters is weight and mileage. Our family has two cars but we drive less combined than a typical single person in our area.
Where that gets problematic is you can't easily validate mileage for something like an online renewal.
I will say you did give me a fun idea however; you could in theory set up a kiosk system where scanning renewal notice + license[0] and get some sort of OBD2 plug-in device, that could record the mileage+vin+other data (to harden against faking attacks[1]) and then you take it back to the kiosk to confirm mileage.
IDK, probably not the best way to do it but maybe there's a good way to handle this sort of scenario.
[0] - In case you abscond with the dispensed device for some reason...
[1] - But this is possibly where it falls apart...
> On weight. 4th power of weight, road damage is proportional to 4th power of weight.
Yup. Which is why damage due to personal vehicles, even heavy EV ones (heavy due to the batteries), is a rounding error in road damage. A single semi passing on a road shall damage it more than one million regular cars. Something insane like that.
It's totally obvious on the three-lanes european highways: the leftmost lane is never deformed like the right-most lane is. And the rightmost lane is deformed on two bands: precisely where the tires of the semis are passing.
Politicians, worldwide, always prone to steal from people, have of course planned everything: WLTP (Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicles Test Procedure), are going to make sure they rip everybody off.
The scam is beautiful: in the EU for example... Make sure everybody switches to EV vehicles, then make sure everybody repeats "road damage is proportional to 4th power of weight" (with conveniently ignoring the issue of trucks weight), so that then you can tax vehicles that are now heavy.
While, of course, making sure that electricity prices are through the roof.
We're already at a point, in some EU countries, where superchargers on the highways cost more money than a gasoline car for the same mileage.
A tax on tires would at least make some sense. But inventing a tax on weight now that cars have heavy EV batteries is just petty.
What reasons wouldn’t also reflect wear against the roads though? I think the idea is to impose a price based on wearing the roads, and a tire tax pretty elegantly approximates that I think
On a lot (really most) of 4WD/AWD drive vehicles, but especially those with 'full-time' (cries in Subaru), if you need to replace one tire 20k miles in (i.e. due to a road hazard etc) you then have to replace the entire set to avoid damaging the drivetrain.
I suppose in theory you could try to 'trust' shops to properly pro-rate such scenarios, however I'm skeptical that it could be implemented in a trustworthy way without being more trouble than it's worth.
> if you need to replace one tire 20k miles in (i.e. due to a road hazard etc) you then have to replace the entire set to avoid damaging the drivetrain
Re-sell them to other vehicle operators that don’t need to worry about that to utilize the remaining life? Would be easier if we had more 3 wheelers but at least 2 tires can be sold as a set. And not extremely difficult to match sets of 3 odds together with another 3 odds if you have some infrastructure to get some network effects.
Yeah I'll admit I've never seen a shop I've gone to offer that as a service; the closest I've gotten is getting the shop's extended warranty on the tires, and then they'll pro-rate the remaining tires on replacement. Still had to pay labor tho.
What kind of tire shops should I look for? Smaller ones or specialty ones?
cheap tires wear faster than expensive ones in the same category tire. should people who can’t afford slow wearing tires or repaired/used tires be effectively charged more than someone who can afford top of the line?
additionally, most people have probably paid to replace tires worn due to imbalance or other issues. how would that be accounted for?
It's fair to say that EV owners need to pay their share of road taxes. I don't think even most EV owners would necessarily disapprove of that in principle; I am one and I don't at all.
I do think that this bill is clearly structured to disincentivize EV purchases at a time when transitioning to EVs is an extremely good ideas for both the public and the climate.
There are a ton of other ways to go about this that would be less punitive: A one-time fee at purchase. A tax on public charging. A tax on charger purchase for home use, or on electricity at homes which have chargers installed.
I think the goal here is to get people not to buy EVs.
Also - and maybe this is a shortcoming of the reporting in the article, not the legislation - I have questions. How is this going to be collected? Is the IRS going to ask if you own an EV and then assess a tax? Are states going to do it? Who's going to pay for the process of figuring out who owns which EVs and how much to tax them? Is there a grandfather period for existing EVs or are we taxing all EVs going forward? Are we taxing them retroactively, too?
(By the way, the "Albert Gore" quoted in the article, despite their similar names and political interests, appears to be no relation to the former Vice President of the United States. That's a fun coincidence.)
> if state departments of transport don’t collect this federal EV tax, the federal government will “withhold an amount equal to 125 percent of the amount owed from the state’s highway apportionment.”
Ah, I see the game plan. Republicans pass this. Democrats then stiff red states in some particular way, maybe by taxing the ethanol content of gasoline.
It kind of makes sense because gasoline taxes help fund road projects. Of course, if you live in a state like Pennsylvania, there's not much evidence of real improvements to the pothole infested roads.
Just a reminder to folks everywhere. Never say to new taxes. After all, last time I checked, roads were supposed to be taken care of by gas tax ( which is extra hilarious, because Trump administration was trying to figure out how to waive it for now ).
This is not enough. To undo the damage done by previous years sales of EVs, perhaps add a minimum 7500 (upto 100000 depending on price of car) federal sales tax on car manufacturers without dealerships and/or who sell more than 200K EVs per annum. This disincentive is absolutely necessary to undo the damage done by these eyesores on American roads.
They should simply place the fee on tires. Then it is a consumable tied to usage rather than trying to match the fee to estimate of mileage.
That makes a ton of sense except one killer flaw - literally killer.
People will put off buying new tires to dangerous extents. Yes Some people already do that, but adding any meaningful fee/tax on new tires will most certainly lead to people drawing out replacements and causing severe accidents.
Unfortunately many states (north eastern states that spread salt on their roads I’m looking at you) have rolled back their safety inspections - but this is the perfect application of a reasonable state-sanctioned activity. Tax tires, inspect vehicles, write fixit tickets, and let insurance handle the rest of the edge cases where deadbeats caused harm with their slick-tired jalopies.
This is not a very compelling argument. Things already cost money. We wouldn’t oppose a water tax because we were worried people might refuse to hydrate themselves once water was marginally more expensive. It might marginally exacerbate an existing problem, but the benefit of solving the target problem (funding roads fairly), even if imperfectly, is a much greater good
respectfully sir, I think that their argument might be a bit compelling. The reason why a water tax works but a tire tax wouldn't work is that well.. you can't live without water but you can live with bad tires until you don't (with accidents)
but people will simply just say, oh this wouldn't happen to me, life already has so many complications and people would simply postpone the tires.
Now granted, all of this depends upon the amount of taxes, the financial situations and greater analysis of the argument but I wouldn't throw mint5's argument completely.
It is funny but people will buy vice even if it might be taxed but people are simply less likely to do actual preventive measures depending on how much they cost.
I think its because we all have this belief that nothing bad might happen to us until it does and we take things for granted. There must be an effect named after it (survivorship bias? or we think we are the main character or something similar, superman effect?, not sure.)
On weight. 4th power of weight, road damage is proportional to 4th power of weight.
Is tire damage proportional to the same figure? If so, heavier cars will naturally require more tire replacements and tire tax collection will more or less match contribution to road wear
... In my experience, not necessarily, especially when it comes to good EV driving habits and a decently designed EV.
By that I mean, if you're driving an EV (or hybrid, to a large extent) properly you are going to be relying on regen braking by default, and if the EV is smart enough, it's going to do at least some limiting of power delivery to minimize wheel skip/etc on even aggressive acceleration.
As anecdata, my Hybrid weighs about 20% more than my first car, yet I've gotten more miles out of my tires than I did on that old Saturn. [0]
Said hybrid weighs close to a Model 3.
[0] - The Subaru doesn't have good data here, because it has the worst luck for killing a tire mid-life with a sidewall puncture/damage and then requires replacing all 4 anyway.
Weight is only one dimension. What matters is weight and mileage. Our family has two cars but we drive less combined than a typical single person in our area.
Where that gets problematic is you can't easily validate mileage for something like an online renewal.
I will say you did give me a fun idea however; you could in theory set up a kiosk system where scanning renewal notice + license[0] and get some sort of OBD2 plug-in device, that could record the mileage+vin+other data (to harden against faking attacks[1]) and then you take it back to the kiosk to confirm mileage.
IDK, probably not the best way to do it but maybe there's a good way to handle this sort of scenario.
[0] - In case you abscond with the dispensed device for some reason...
[1] - But this is possibly where it falls apart...
> On weight. 4th power of weight, road damage is proportional to 4th power of weight.
Yup. Which is why damage due to personal vehicles, even heavy EV ones (heavy due to the batteries), is a rounding error in road damage. A single semi passing on a road shall damage it more than one million regular cars. Something insane like that.
It's totally obvious on the three-lanes european highways: the leftmost lane is never deformed like the right-most lane is. And the rightmost lane is deformed on two bands: precisely where the tires of the semis are passing.
Politicians, worldwide, always prone to steal from people, have of course planned everything: WLTP (Worldwide Harmonised Light Vehicles Test Procedure), are going to make sure they rip everybody off.
The scam is beautiful: in the EU for example... Make sure everybody switches to EV vehicles, then make sure everybody repeats "road damage is proportional to 4th power of weight" (with conveniently ignoring the issue of trucks weight), so that then you can tax vehicles that are now heavy.
While, of course, making sure that electricity prices are through the roof.
We're already at a point, in some EU countries, where superchargers on the highways cost more money than a gasoline car for the same mileage.
A tax on tires would at least make some sense. But inventing a tax on weight now that cars have heavy EV batteries is just petty.
Commercial trucks and logistic-dependent firms like Amazon would have a fit, over losing this entitlement.
My EV eats tires at a high rate that's not consistent with other cars in its size class.
It also weighs only 2650 pounds, nearly half that of many other passenger vehicles on the road today.
But my car is weird, not at all common in the United States, and no longer manufactured.
tires all wear in different ways and for different reasons.
What reasons wouldn’t also reflect wear against the roads though? I think the idea is to impose a price based on wearing the roads, and a tire tax pretty elegantly approximates that I think
I'll give a fun one.
On a lot (really most) of 4WD/AWD drive vehicles, but especially those with 'full-time' (cries in Subaru), if you need to replace one tire 20k miles in (i.e. due to a road hazard etc) you then have to replace the entire set to avoid damaging the drivetrain.
I suppose in theory you could try to 'trust' shops to properly pro-rate such scenarios, however I'm skeptical that it could be implemented in a trustworthy way without being more trouble than it's worth.
> if you need to replace one tire 20k miles in (i.e. due to a road hazard etc) you then have to replace the entire set to avoid damaging the drivetrain
Re-sell them to other vehicle operators that don’t need to worry about that to utilize the remaining life? Would be easier if we had more 3 wheelers but at least 2 tires can be sold as a set. And not extremely difficult to match sets of 3 odds together with another 3 odds if you have some infrastructure to get some network effects.
Cuz i’m sure the shop is doing that.
why do people think this ? you just shave a new tire down to the diameter of the existing tires.
Because while this is 100% a thing and anyone who has taken a vehicle to the track knows this, Les Schwab or Discount Tire aren't doing this for you.
Yeah I'll admit I've never seen a shop I've gone to offer that as a service; the closest I've gotten is getting the shop's extended warranty on the tires, and then they'll pro-rate the remaining tires on replacement. Still had to pay labor tho.
What kind of tire shops should I look for? Smaller ones or specialty ones?
> What reasons wouldn’t also reflect wear against the roads though?
Off-road driving.
Put on your dyed tires for that. Don’t get caught driving on the road with them!
cheap tires wear faster than expensive ones in the same category tire. should people who can’t afford slow wearing tires or repaired/used tires be effectively charged more than someone who can afford top of the line?
additionally, most people have probably paid to replace tires worn due to imbalance or other issues. how would that be accounted for?
Gas tax also is not well calibrated to road wear.
Not necessarily, although one can argue that it's an attempt to deter gas guzzler vehicles.
And with my kind of luck, I replace about 2-3 tires in the life span of a set due to road hazards.
It's fair to say that EV owners need to pay their share of road taxes. I don't think even most EV owners would necessarily disapprove of that in principle; I am one and I don't at all.
I do think that this bill is clearly structured to disincentivize EV purchases at a time when transitioning to EVs is an extremely good ideas for both the public and the climate.
There are a ton of other ways to go about this that would be less punitive: A one-time fee at purchase. A tax on public charging. A tax on charger purchase for home use, or on electricity at homes which have chargers installed.
I think the goal here is to get people not to buy EVs.
Also - and maybe this is a shortcoming of the reporting in the article, not the legislation - I have questions. How is this going to be collected? Is the IRS going to ask if you own an EV and then assess a tax? Are states going to do it? Who's going to pay for the process of figuring out who owns which EVs and how much to tax them? Is there a grandfather period for existing EVs or are we taxing all EVs going forward? Are we taxing them retroactively, too?
(By the way, the "Albert Gore" quoted in the article, despite their similar names and political interests, appears to be no relation to the former Vice President of the United States. That's a fun coincidence.)
Legislators are forgetting that they can charge a federal tax at charging stations, 18.4 cents/watt or something like that.
Charitably, they maybe haven't forgotten this.
Maybe they think that most people will just charge at home instead of charging stations if they pay significantly more at charging stations
People charge at home: no $ People charge at work: business has to eat the cost, can’t have that.
If this fee makes sense, then they should also remove any existing taxes for roads and assess the fee to every car.
User already do. That’s just how you use an electric car.
Why start with the lever everybody expects and nobody will ever stop you from pulling?
> if state departments of transport don’t collect this federal EV tax, the federal government will “withhold an amount equal to 125 percent of the amount owed from the state’s highway apportionment.”
Ah, I see the game plan. Republicans pass this. Democrats then stiff red states in some particular way, maybe by taxing the ethanol content of gasoline.
It kind of makes sense because gasoline taxes help fund road projects. Of course, if you live in a state like Pennsylvania, there's not much evidence of real improvements to the pothole infested roads.
On-topic: tire taxes already go into a Federal cleanup fund, increasing those makes sense.
Off-topic: Metal doesn’t do well in that region,
you expect better from road-materials?
When in PA/NY and others near the Lakes, I regularly see newer rusted cars,
rusted-out newer satellite dishes…
PennDOT is possibly one of the best in the country.
Your expectations for the physical shape of the roads and their materials are absurd,
given the chronic, sustained WEEKS of humidity, precipitation/snow in the region.
Have you been to Europe? I just returned from Paris where it rained and hailed last week. The roads are pristine. Same in London.
Tax everyone based on annual miles * weight of the vehicle.
Just a reminder to folks everywhere. Never say to new taxes. After all, last time I checked, roads were supposed to be taken care of by gas tax ( which is extra hilarious, because Trump administration was trying to figure out how to waive it for now ).
tax what you want less of...
[dead]
This is not enough. To undo the damage done by previous years sales of EVs, perhaps add a minimum 7500 (upto 100000 depending on price of car) federal sales tax on car manufacturers without dealerships and/or who sell more than 200K EVs per annum. This disincentive is absolutely necessary to undo the damage done by these eyesores on American roads.
"We should tax EVs because I think they are ugly" is a take I genuinely would never have imagined I'd hear.
if ugliness = taxation on cars, every US made car should get a special $100k tax on top of MSRP, Ford and Chevy like $150k :)
Having dealerships has nothing to do with road wear. Are you just shaping those conditions to target the car companies you don’t like?