I worked for one such employer long ago that would “accidentally” bounce paychecks.
This happened with such regularity that people would take their checks to said employer’s bank on payday and stand in line to cash them before heading to the office. You’d see a couple of coworkers in line to do this.
Maintaining a list like this is probably not super useful. Any company that does this kind of stuff as a routine will not continue the routine of employing people for long.
"Any company that does this kind of stuff as a routine will not continue the routine of employing people for long."
"On contracts" is explicitly mentioned. While bouncing your W-2 employees' paychecks is a big no-no, there are plenty of organizations that stiff contractors for decades.
> plenty of organizations that stiff contractors for decades
POTUS was famous for doing this - stiffing small contractors working on his real estate projects. This seemed like a pretty major character tell, but folks voted for him all the same.
I used to work for a tiny company where probably just due to lack of cash (and/or failure to properly manage the payroll account) this was also an issue. We'd be given our paychecks in the morning and go to the bank at lunchtime to cash them!
>will not continue the routine of employing people for long
The secret is to do this under different corporate names, not that they go out of business literally, but in America and probably elsewhere, they just rebrand and restablish elsewhere.
There first error was paying people. In a past life i worked in the entertainment industry. I was daily shocked by the number of non-employee "staff" positions that were unpaid. Students working a summer for "experience" came back a second summer as managers, then never left. A couple became supervisors of paid staff. Consumers would be shocked at how much profesional animation and cgi work is actually done by unpaid interns. Your favorite youtube channel? Dig into what an "association" with a local college actually means for thier bottom line.
I also met convicts doing "volunteer" work which did not pay but satisfied some aspect of thier parole. And with small businesses, there was of course the many children of business owners who were "helping out mom and dad", often as unpaid managers, in hopes of one day inheriting the business.
This is absolutely needed for media companies in London, some of whom may pay freelancers many months after invoicing and only if the freelancer repeatedly reminds them and escalates towards legal threats. When I ran such a company we made a point of paying people the same day they invoiced in order to stand out as being great to work with, it was the easiest win ever.
In much the same way as some HR departments exist to protect the business from their employees, some Finance departments exist to not pay the bills (for as long as possible). They may of course do this because the business itself is not being paid
I read somewhere (HN?) that a guy (an engineer who somehow got temporarily involved in running a restaurant?) got a restaurant a huge (70%?) discount on meat by buying a year's meat upfront on a predictable delivery schedule.
Your vendors hate 90 day payment just as much as you hate when your customers do it, and they are covering for non-payment, late payment, and difficult customers by raising their prices. Crucially, they have to charge you the "bad customer" price because they don't know you, and then your incentive is to be a bad customer because it doesn't cost anything extra for you.
The restaurant owner thought it was crazy but couldn't argue with the cost reduction. The moral of the story was that if you'd just communicate more you may find a mutual benefit. The restaurant loved the vendor but the vendor also felt the restaurant was their best customer even though they were getting 70% less money! - because of the predictability, less need for inventory, better cash flow.
In Germany if you leave a Google review saying "the salad tasted bad" you may get sued for defamation, but probably not because they'll threaten Google first, who will take it down and ding your account. If they do sue you, they will win unless you can prove to a judge that the salad tasted bad. You will then have to pay a few thousand dollars of damages and another few thousand of legal fees (yours and theirs).
I do not have an answer to your question but if a company is not paying people contact the labor board in their state/province and report them. Example for the US [1]. Everyone not being paid should do the same. The risk of course is that the company may have to accelerate plans to shut down. a.k.a. pulling off the bandage but if one is essentially working for free then maybe that is not so bad.
A startup I worked for many years ago did this. The founder would be like its okay you babe you got 1% equity or whatever And I would also be like I gotta pay my rent and buy groceries though...
That company went under in a year. Surprisingly...
The founder reached out in the years since talking about his new endeavor trying to get me to join the team. Ha. Jokes.
I don't know of any website that lists all employers who break contracts or miss payments. I might just create one. However, sometimes past contractors or clients leave reviews warning about unpaid freelance invoices or poor business ethics on review sites like Trustpilot.
I don't know that anyone can risk running such a site. There'd need to be a long trail of proof behind each claim, and proof is getting easier to manufacture by the day.
I would assume they go out of business, or (at least in the US) run into an informed employee who reports them to local state authorities ... and maybe still go out of business.
Glassdoor before they allowed takeovers of corporate pages by the business operators. But your best bet is probably unfortunately to scan social media. There's ghostjobs.io for job offer reviews but I'm not aware of anything else.
An unethical company is likely would consider a lawsuit to put such private site out of business. A collection of unethical companies would be an exponentially higher risk to such site.
Sounds like a Streissand effect waiting to happen. Besides, IANAL, but I'm sure plenty of people here could find a lawyer to file for an easy anti-SLAPP defense.
Factual statements about bad employers are very much free speech. Judges aren't particularly fond of frivolous lawsuits. There are already mechanisms in place to quickly throw those away without wasting everyone's time and money.
All true, but anyone putting up a site would need the bankroll to handle such a lawsuit through to winning, and then be able to collect on the SLAPP judgement (which the non-paying employer would likely have put up obstacles to collection). That's the big problem with lawsuits — you start out in a losing position just because of the cost to defend.
So a random individual without the bankroll to defend is likely vulnerable, and this is a libel suit, so unlike a copyright suit, you can't solve it just by taking it down. You posted the allegation, now you must defend it. Yes, the truth is an absolute defense against libel, but you still need to defend it that far (through pretrial motions, discovery, etc.). Even getting to file for a dismissal is likely to be $five-figures with a good attorney, and you NEED a good attny. OFC, if you have a good case, a good firm may take it on spec, but....
And of course, how do you know all the postings on your site are actually fully factual and not exaggerated in any way?
Because, any honest employer falsely accused would be rightly very pissed off.
>And of course, how do you know all the postings on your site are actually fully factual and not exaggerated in any way?
You don't, but you smile and just delete the content. And then you've done your part as a platform. You're very happy to delete things when notified, and you do it promptly. Then you get to publish a very factual transparency notice.
Someone will have archived the page already? Social media is upset when they hear that the big company tried to attack the small independent site to take down this page that They Don't Want You To See? That's out of your hands, you're a neutral platform and you've done your part.
You just need to fold immediately, and you're covered by all the safe harbor neutral platform protections. Same as forums, social media, any website with user-generated content.
Now that won't stop an asshole from suing you over frivolous nonsense. But it does make it easy to throw their suit away - like you said, if you have the spite and money to follow through with a defense.
Same way any other website with user-generated content deals with it. The website has broad immunity as a platform, but is expected to take down content that would be illegal when notified.
Random people on the Internet have been at it long enough that there is plenty of precedent to establish that you can safely host a platform. But then again, I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and for legal reasons this is not the legal definition of legal advice, etc.
Require strict KYC of all reviewers. This should be no privacy concern since it's about B2B contracts that operate in public between two registered businesses.
Don't publicize who wrote a review, but keep it on hand for subpoenas. You are probably not liable for defamation if you can identify who wrote the review - and they should be able to prove it's true. Ask a lawyer first of course.
Country recorder has a list of judgements against people and entities found to be in breach of contract. This is what exists but probably not what you were thinking of.
It's easy to prove that you didn't get paid though. The company would lose in a second, assuming the claim is true. Defamation is only defamation if it isn't true.
Surely they'd know that they didn't pay the employee writing the review...
That being said, the whole scenario seems absurd. Most countries have easy ways for employees to file claims of non-payment and companies are forced to pay up.. I've never heard of a company not paying staff AND getting away with it unless they're bankrupt.
As far as I understand it, yes, the corporate legal system is setup to precisely solve this problem.
Court cases are public, and non payment cases can be brought to courts, generally as breach of contract. So find the State the company is setup in, find the courts of the relevant jurisdictions, and see if they have any cases for non-payment.
Yes. It's called a "union". They were discovered around the turn of the 20th century, caused the greatest increase in prosperity and wealth for the greatest number of people of any idea in history but then we decided we were collectively too smart for all that so we're inexorably inching our way back towards children suffering in dangerous conditions to enrich a few warlords (and no, they won't pay you on time).
The police? Like you would call fir any crime. The union boss is also elected, so you don't vote for people that would do that. You have a lot more power/leverage in that situation than a CEO laying you off right before your options cliff, despite what the people funding whisper/fear campaigns and their shills in the media are desperate to convince you of. Point me to one example of a union boss stealing pensions and I'll bring you 100 cases of CEXs doing worse with no recourse for the victims.
It's gone the instant the CEO takes your options by laying you off a week before they vest.
^ that has happened to me. Along with a million other slights: health care reduced, vacation time reduced, etc. etc. A hypothetical union boss running off with dues never has.
Think very carefully about where this abstract fear of "bad union bosses" comes from.
Years of crime and corruption caused long perception and union density declines from the 50s to the late 80s, when hundreds of officials finally got RICO’d, some unions fell under government supervision, etc.
They still didn’t really give up on crime and corruption, but they never really recovered in the US.
What's the frequency of this happening in modern times and what are the recourses we've set in place? Are there any forms of recourse that you'd recommend be added? And what representatives are running on such platforms to add those forms of recourse for workers?
I worked for one such employer long ago that would “accidentally” bounce paychecks.
This happened with such regularity that people would take their checks to said employer’s bank on payday and stand in line to cash them before heading to the office. You’d see a couple of coworkers in line to do this.
Maintaining a list like this is probably not super useful. Any company that does this kind of stuff as a routine will not continue the routine of employing people for long.
"Any company that does this kind of stuff as a routine will not continue the routine of employing people for long."
"On contracts" is explicitly mentioned. While bouncing your W-2 employees' paychecks is a big no-no, there are plenty of organizations that stiff contractors for decades.
> plenty of organizations that stiff contractors for decades
POTUS was famous for doing this - stiffing small contractors working on his real estate projects. This seemed like a pretty major character tell, but folks voted for him all the same.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hundreds-claim-donald-t...
I used to work for a tiny company where probably just due to lack of cash (and/or failure to properly manage the payroll account) this was also an issue. We'd be given our paychecks in the morning and go to the bank at lunchtime to cash them!
>will not continue the routine of employing people for long
The secret is to do this under different corporate names, not that they go out of business literally, but in America and probably elsewhere, they just rebrand and restablish elsewhere.
There first error was paying people. In a past life i worked in the entertainment industry. I was daily shocked by the number of non-employee "staff" positions that were unpaid. Students working a summer for "experience" came back a second summer as managers, then never left. A couple became supervisors of paid staff. Consumers would be shocked at how much profesional animation and cgi work is actually done by unpaid interns. Your favorite youtube channel? Dig into what an "association" with a local college actually means for thier bottom line.
I also met convicts doing "volunteer" work which did not pay but satisfied some aspect of thier parole. And with small businesses, there was of course the many children of business owners who were "helping out mom and dad", often as unpaid managers, in hopes of one day inheriting the business.
Make it. I’ll add a few.
These YC founders are not held accountable for their ridiculous behavior
This is absolutely needed for media companies in London, some of whom may pay freelancers many months after invoicing and only if the freelancer repeatedly reminds them and escalates towards legal threats. When I ran such a company we made a point of paying people the same day they invoiced in order to stand out as being great to work with, it was the easiest win ever.
businesses absolutely love not paying for things. each other, contractors, etc.
employees don’t realize how good they have it with payroll protections tbh. That’s how it should be of course!
In much the same way as some HR departments exist to protect the business from their employees, some Finance departments exist to not pay the bills (for as long as possible). They may of course do this because the business itself is not being paid
I read somewhere (HN?) that a guy (an engineer who somehow got temporarily involved in running a restaurant?) got a restaurant a huge (70%?) discount on meat by buying a year's meat upfront on a predictable delivery schedule.
Your vendors hate 90 day payment just as much as you hate when your customers do it, and they are covering for non-payment, late payment, and difficult customers by raising their prices. Crucially, they have to charge you the "bad customer" price because they don't know you, and then your incentive is to be a bad customer because it doesn't cost anything extra for you.
The restaurant owner thought it was crazy but couldn't argue with the cost reduction. The moral of the story was that if you'd just communicate more you may find a mutual benefit. The restaurant loved the vendor but the vendor also felt the restaurant was their best customer even though they were getting 70% less money! - because of the predictability, less need for inventory, better cash flow.
This is why a public shitlist of non-paying employers might be useful
If companies start taking a reputation hit for not paying contractors in a timely fashion, they will correct the behavior eventually
I imagine if you start one, and it gets much use, right away you have a validation problem.
Also, in most countries (especially the US), also a defamation problem.
In the US? How is it different than yelp? (Except for the extortion)
There's a difference between "I didn't like their salad" (opinion) and "they don't pay their bills" (a fact, that could be defamation if not true)
In Germany if you leave a Google review saying "the salad tasted bad" you may get sued for defamation, but probably not because they'll threaten Google first, who will take it down and ding your account. If they do sue you, they will win unless you can prove to a judge that the salad tasted bad. You will then have to pay a few thousand dollars of damages and another few thousand of legal fees (yours and theirs).
What about “the service was slow”
I do not have an answer to your question but if a company is not paying people contact the labor board in their state/province and report them. Example for the US [1]. Everyone not being paid should do the same. The risk of course is that the company may have to accelerate plans to shut down. a.k.a. pulling off the bandage but if one is essentially working for free then maybe that is not so bad.
[1] - https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/contacts
A startup I worked for many years ago did this. The founder would be like its okay you babe you got 1% equity or whatever And I would also be like I gotta pay my rent and buy groceries though...
That company went under in a year. Surprisingly...
The founder reached out in the years since talking about his new endeavor trying to get me to join the team. Ha. Jokes.
I don't know of any website that lists all employers who break contracts or miss payments. I might just create one. However, sometimes past contractors or clients leave reviews warning about unpaid freelance invoices or poor business ethics on review sites like Trustpilot.
I don't know that anyone can risk running such a site. There'd need to be a long trail of proof behind each claim, and proof is getting easier to manufacture by the day.
Section 230
How long does a place last doing this?
I would assume they go out of business, or (at least in the US) run into an informed employee who reports them to local state authorities ... and maybe still go out of business.
Glassdoor before they allowed takeovers of corporate pages by the business operators. But your best bet is probably unfortunately to scan social media. There's ghostjobs.io for job offer reviews but I'm not aware of anything else.
This is why, as a contractor, you never, never, ever transfer source materials until the bill has been paid.
If a company insists on working inside their version control system, insist that each biweekly payment be submitted in advance.
Early in my career, when I was dealing more with bottom-tier customers, the first 3 companies tried to stiff me.
They were all surprised to learn that they couldn't do much without the source material that they never paid for.
One of them was very surprised when the website flipped to a white screen on a Monday morning at 9am.
They called asking why "THEIR" website was blank.
I explained that they didn't own any websites, as no money was exchanged.
If they would like me to transfer MY website to them, all they needed to do, was submit payment, along with late fees.
The money hit my account within the hour and they owned a website a few minutes after that.
An unethical company is likely would consider a lawsuit to put such private site out of business. A collection of unethical companies would be an exponentially higher risk to such site.
Sounds like a Streissand effect waiting to happen. Besides, IANAL, but I'm sure plenty of people here could find a lawyer to file for an easy anti-SLAPP defense.
Factual statements about bad employers are very much free speech. Judges aren't particularly fond of frivolous lawsuits. There are already mechanisms in place to quickly throw those away without wasting everyone's time and money.
All true, but anyone putting up a site would need the bankroll to handle such a lawsuit through to winning, and then be able to collect on the SLAPP judgement (which the non-paying employer would likely have put up obstacles to collection). That's the big problem with lawsuits — you start out in a losing position just because of the cost to defend.
So a random individual without the bankroll to defend is likely vulnerable, and this is a libel suit, so unlike a copyright suit, you can't solve it just by taking it down. You posted the allegation, now you must defend it. Yes, the truth is an absolute defense against libel, but you still need to defend it that far (through pretrial motions, discovery, etc.). Even getting to file for a dismissal is likely to be $five-figures with a good attorney, and you NEED a good attny. OFC, if you have a good case, a good firm may take it on spec, but....
And of course, how do you know all the postings on your site are actually fully factual and not exaggerated in any way?
Because, any honest employer falsely accused would be rightly very pissed off.
Tough problem.
>And of course, how do you know all the postings on your site are actually fully factual and not exaggerated in any way?
You don't, but you smile and just delete the content. And then you've done your part as a platform. You're very happy to delete things when notified, and you do it promptly. Then you get to publish a very factual transparency notice.
Someone will have archived the page already? Social media is upset when they hear that the big company tried to attack the small independent site to take down this page that They Don't Want You To See? That's out of your hands, you're a neutral platform and you've done your part.
You just need to fold immediately, and you're covered by all the safe harbor neutral platform protections. Same as forums, social media, any website with user-generated content.
Now that won't stop an asshole from suing you over frivolous nonsense. But it does make it easy to throw their suit away - like you said, if you have the spite and money to follow through with a defense.
> I'm sure plenty of people here could find a lawyer to file for an easy anti-SLAPP defense.
SLAPPs are only illegal in certain jurisdictions, not including federal or even many states.
>Factual statements about bad employers
and how is this hypothetical website you're hyping supposed to uncover the factuality of statements random people from the internet are posting?
Same way any other website with user-generated content deals with it. The website has broad immunity as a platform, but is expected to take down content that would be illegal when notified.
Random people on the Internet have been at it long enough that there is plenty of precedent to establish that you can safely host a platform. But then again, I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, and for legal reasons this is not the legal definition of legal advice, etc.
Require strict KYC of all reviewers. This should be no privacy concern since it's about B2B contracts that operate in public between two registered businesses.
Don't publicize who wrote a review, but keep it on hand for subpoenas. You are probably not liable for defamation if you can identify who wrote the review - and they should be able to prove it's true. Ask a lawyer first of course.
Country recorder has a list of judgements against people and entities found to be in breach of contract. This is what exists but probably not what you were thinking of.
This is just asking for defamation troubles.
Depending on your jurisdiction, reviews are protected free speech. You're arguably reviewing your employment.
If they actually didn't pay staff, do you really think they want to go to court?
... yes?
Also, what if there were malicious submissions? Then they would definitely go to court. How can you tell?
It's easy to prove that you didn't get paid though. The company would lose in a second, assuming the claim is true. Defamation is only defamation if it isn't true.
Surely they'd know that they didn't pay the employee writing the review...
That being said, the whole scenario seems absurd. Most countries have easy ways for employees to file claims of non-payment and companies are forced to pay up.. I've never heard of a company not paying staff AND getting away with it unless they're bankrupt.
How reliable has Glass door been lately?
Considering they require an ID now, it's not usable anymore.
Yeah, but I have no idea how good it is or how expensive it is: https://www.dnb.com/en-us/smb.html
This is such an obvious feature for Glassdoor, but needs verification to avoid abuse.
Glassdoor?
As far as I understand it, yes, the corporate legal system is setup to precisely solve this problem.
Court cases are public, and non payment cases can be brought to courts, generally as breach of contract. So find the State the company is setup in, find the courts of the relevant jurisdictions, and see if they have any cases for non-payment.
I would assume that the list of Trump appointees would be a good place to start.
Yes. It's called a "union". They were discovered around the turn of the 20th century, caused the greatest increase in prosperity and wealth for the greatest number of people of any idea in history but then we decided we were collectively too smart for all that so we're inexorably inching our way back towards children suffering in dangerous conditions to enrich a few warlords (and no, they won't pay you on time).
And when those "union" bosses run off with the pension fund, who do you call? Or when they insist on the dues and then use them for something else?
The police? Like you would call fir any crime. The union boss is also elected, so you don't vote for people that would do that. You have a lot more power/leverage in that situation than a CEO laying you off right before your options cliff, despite what the people funding whisper/fear campaigns and their shills in the media are desperate to convince you of. Point me to one example of a union boss stealing pensions and I'll bring you 100 cases of CEXs doing worse with no recourse for the victims.
Money is gone by the time police comes
It's gone the instant the CEO takes your options by laying you off a week before they vest.
^ that has happened to me. Along with a million other slights: health care reduced, vacation time reduced, etc. etc. A hypothetical union boss running off with dues never has.
Think very carefully about where this abstract fear of "bad union bosses" comes from.
Do you actually think the police protect workers from, well, anyone?
A lawyer? That’s pretty obvious.
It’s what you do when anyone is in breach of contract or some other civil matter. You just sue them.
If it’s a criminal fraud, there’s other people who will help, we call those the authorities.
Money is already gone
And then the court brings it back. Unless they're hiding in Russia?
Oh, did this happen to you personally? If so, you have my sympathies.
If it's just a hypothetical, consider this:
The money doubles and everyone laughs about it in the end.
We can look to our own history.
Years of crime and corruption caused long perception and union density declines from the 50s to the late 80s, when hundreds of officials finally got RICO’d, some unions fell under government supervision, etc.
They still didn’t really give up on crime and corruption, but they never really recovered in the US.
What's the frequency of this happening in modern times and what are the recourses we've set in place? Are there any forms of recourse that you'd recommend be added? And what representatives are running on such platforms to add those forms of recourse for workers?
Or are you just fear mongering about unions?