This sits at an interesting nexus: I don’t like centralized digital payment systems, especially those run by the government, and I don’t like the destruction of cash. But interference in another country’s system of monetary exchange seems worse. I guess this is a case where everyone is the bad guy.
The US has extremely centralized electronic payments, it's just that the central points are Visa and MasterCard. I'm sure there are philosophical points in favor of decentralized systems, and systems not run by governments, but are we really better off giving 1.5-3% of each transaction to Visa or MasterCard?
Obviously, centralized is centralized whether it’s private or public. Both are bad.
However, parallel centralized private systems with strong safeguards are slightly better than a single public system. But only slightly. Public centralized payments create turnkey totalitarianism, which is never a good idea.
What the industry badly needs is antitrust enforcement.
This isn't decentralized vs centralized, this is the US hegemony reacting to getting cut out of the future, in profits, in influence, and control of value transfer. Brazil's Pix instant payment system, operated by their central bank, costs ~$10M/year to operate, for enormous benefit to everyone who uses it as a financial utility. That pattern is the opportunity for other nations using US payment infra or not having their own yet to avoid US payment infra control and profits. "Your margin is my opportunity."
From this piece:
> That said, the biggest driver behind the move appears to be another issue entirely: Brazil’s publicly controlled digital payments system, Pix, which is leaving the global payment duopoly, VISA and Mastercard, and US tech giants increasingly out of the equation. The system, launched in 2020, allows almost instant money transfers between people, companies and government entities 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from any device with an internet connection.
> In other words, the US Trade Representative is imposing additional tariffs on Brazil because its government and central bank are preventing US banks and financial companies from engaging in fee gouging on its publicly run payments system. According to the USTR’s arguments, these entities are being forced to offer access to the payment system on the main screen of their mobile apps and are banned from charging commissions to individuals for using the service.
> PIX is also viewed as a potential monetary blueprint for the BRICS alliance, as it seeks to create an international payment platform aimed at reducing reliance on the USD. Lula is keen to encourage this trend. By mid-2026, Brazil’s central bank had signed agreements to share information about Pix with 65 international counterparts, including rich economies like Germany and Canada as well as emerging-market peers such as South Africa and Türkiye.
> Visa reported Tuesday that fourth-quarter net income rose 19 percent year over year to $4.7 billion on revenue of $8.6 billion, which would equal a profit margin of 55 percent. For the full year, net income rose 15 percent to $17.3 billion on revenue of $32.7 billion for a profit margin of 53 percent.
> Mastercard reported today that third-quarter net income rose 28 percent year over year to $3.2 billion on revenue of $6.5 billion, a profit margin of 49 percent. By contrast, 2022’s average net profit margin for general retail was only 2.4 percent.
> Last week, JPMorgan Chase, the nation’s largest credit card issuer, reported that third-quarter net income was up 35 percent year over year to $13.2 billion on revenue of $40.7 billion, a profit margin of 32 percent. No. 2 issuer Citigroup reported net income of $3.5 billion, up 2 percent from a year ago, on revenue of $20.1 billion for a 17 percent profit margin. Wells Fargo, another large issuer, said net income skyrocketed 60 percent to $5.8 billion on revenue of $20.9 billion, a 28 percent profit margin.
Right, I’m all for carving up or cutting out central US gatekeepers (including here at home), I just don’t think single centralized systems like Pix are necessarily better. For sovereignty, yes, but not for individual liberties. Government shouldn’t have a direct lever to instantly cut off your payments or control your spending.
Besides cash, no distributed payment systems in use at scale exist. Your options are centralized systems with strong regulation, or centralized systems with weak regulation. KYC, AML, and other controls on value transfer will always exist as long as nation states exist, they have a monopoly on the law and enforcement of it. You won't solve people problems with tech.
These controls exist, but the more options there are, the weaker the controls are. I’m in favor of weakening them as much as possible to reduce potential chokepoints.
I recently figured out buying a pack of gum at the closest grocery store and using cash-back at the register is actually a cheaper way to get cash than the ATM outside the store charging $3 for a withdrawal.
I dare anyone to tell me with a straight face that this is a well-run, efficient system we have going. Profit-seeking in capitalism is meant to incentivize new ideas and greater efficiency. Currently though its mostly incentivizing throwing a wrench in any solution that leads to less profit. The tail is wagging the dog.
Sounds like one of those "BIG HELPS" Trump tweeted about doing for Tim Apple in his retirement tribute, Brazil has been trying to get their fee-less payments on iPhone for nearly two years now to no avail.
This sits at an interesting nexus: I don’t like centralized digital payment systems, especially those run by the government, and I don’t like the destruction of cash. But interference in another country’s system of monetary exchange seems worse. I guess this is a case where everyone is the bad guy.
The US has extremely centralized electronic payments, it's just that the central points are Visa and MasterCard. I'm sure there are philosophical points in favor of decentralized systems, and systems not run by governments, but are we really better off giving 1.5-3% of each transaction to Visa or MasterCard?
Obviously, centralized is centralized whether it’s private or public. Both are bad.
However, parallel centralized private systems with strong safeguards are slightly better than a single public system. But only slightly. Public centralized payments create turnkey totalitarianism, which is never a good idea.
What the industry badly needs is antitrust enforcement.
This isn't decentralized vs centralized, this is the US hegemony reacting to getting cut out of the future, in profits, in influence, and control of value transfer. Brazil's Pix instant payment system, operated by their central bank, costs ~$10M/year to operate, for enormous benefit to everyone who uses it as a financial utility. That pattern is the opportunity for other nations using US payment infra or not having their own yet to avoid US payment infra control and profits. "Your margin is my opportunity."
From this piece:
> That said, the biggest driver behind the move appears to be another issue entirely: Brazil’s publicly controlled digital payments system, Pix, which is leaving the global payment duopoly, VISA and Mastercard, and US tech giants increasingly out of the equation. The system, launched in 2020, allows almost instant money transfers between people, companies and government entities 24 hours a day, seven days a week, from any device with an internet connection.
> In other words, the US Trade Representative is imposing additional tariffs on Brazil because its government and central bank are preventing US banks and financial companies from engaging in fee gouging on its publicly run payments system. According to the USTR’s arguments, these entities are being forced to offer access to the payment system on the main screen of their mobile apps and are banned from charging commissions to individuals for using the service.
> PIX is also viewed as a potential monetary blueprint for the BRICS alliance, as it seeks to create an international payment platform aimed at reducing reliance on the USD. Lula is keen to encourage this trend. By mid-2026, Brazil’s central bank had signed agreements to share information about Pix with 65 international counterparts, including rich economies like Germany and Canada as well as emerging-market peers such as South Africa and Türkiye.
Europe Fights to Loosen America’s Grip on Payment Systems - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-06-16/europe-fi... | https://archive.today/o699I - June 16th, 2026
China nears launch of mBridge as alternative to Swift – report - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48636931 - June 2026
GOV.UK goes Dutch on payments as it dumps Stripe - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415217 - June 2026 (235 comments)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415854 (citations from a previous comment I wrote in a subthread about Pix, Brazil's central instant payment system)
Stunning Visa and Mastercard Profit Margins Prove Credit Card Market is Broken - https://merchantspaymentscoalition.com/stunning-visa-and-mas... October 26th, 2023
> Visa reported Tuesday that fourth-quarter net income rose 19 percent year over year to $4.7 billion on revenue of $8.6 billion, which would equal a profit margin of 55 percent. For the full year, net income rose 15 percent to $17.3 billion on revenue of $32.7 billion for a profit margin of 53 percent.
> Mastercard reported today that third-quarter net income rose 28 percent year over year to $3.2 billion on revenue of $6.5 billion, a profit margin of 49 percent. By contrast, 2022’s average net profit margin for general retail was only 2.4 percent.
> Last week, JPMorgan Chase, the nation’s largest credit card issuer, reported that third-quarter net income was up 35 percent year over year to $13.2 billion on revenue of $40.7 billion, a profit margin of 32 percent. No. 2 issuer Citigroup reported net income of $3.5 billion, up 2 percent from a year ago, on revenue of $20.1 billion for a 17 percent profit margin. Wells Fargo, another large issuer, said net income skyrocketed 60 percent to $5.8 billion on revenue of $20.9 billion, a 28 percent profit margin.
(2023 figures above)
Right, I’m all for carving up or cutting out central US gatekeepers (including here at home), I just don’t think single centralized systems like Pix are necessarily better. For sovereignty, yes, but not for individual liberties. Government shouldn’t have a direct lever to instantly cut off your payments or control your spending.
Besides cash, no distributed payment systems in use at scale exist. Your options are centralized systems with strong regulation, or centralized systems with weak regulation. KYC, AML, and other controls on value transfer will always exist as long as nation states exist, they have a monopoly on the law and enforcement of it. You won't solve people problems with tech.
These controls exist, but the more options there are, the weaker the controls are. I’m in favor of weakening them as much as possible to reduce potential chokepoints.
The more alternatives, the better.
I recently figured out buying a pack of gum at the closest grocery store and using cash-back at the register is actually a cheaper way to get cash than the ATM outside the store charging $3 for a withdrawal.
I dare anyone to tell me with a straight face that this is a well-run, efficient system we have going. Profit-seeking in capitalism is meant to incentivize new ideas and greater efficiency. Currently though its mostly incentivizing throwing a wrench in any solution that leads to less profit. The tail is wagging the dog.
Sounds like one of those "BIG HELPS" Trump tweeted about doing for Tim Apple in his retirement tribute, Brazil has been trying to get their fee-less payments on iPhone for nearly two years now to no avail.
https://9to5mac.com/2025/05/09/apple-nfc-fee-probed-in-brazi...