I don't want to replicate email. I want to fix it.
Sending email should not be free. It should be really, really cheap to send an email to one person (like a fraction of a fraction of a cent), but get exponentially more expensive the more you send.
People shouldn't be able to send emails to you without your prior approval (which you can revoke at an instant).
The recipient should be able to charge a tack-on fee for having email sent to him. I should be able to charge annoying people a lot to send to me, and charge my friends almost nothing. People who send annoying stuff to me should pay more to get my attention.
All of a sudden, forwarding that stupid article without thinking about the content (or even reading the article they're sending) will be second guessed. Save the money (and time), by sending only worthwhile stuff that you penned.
Depends how it's designed. I've been doing something similar for almost a decade. If I get an email from a non-whitelisted person, they get an auto reply asking them to go through a simple hoop. Once they do that, the email lands in my inbox.
Yes, many people go through that hoop!
I can still see their emails if they don't. They site in a Quarantine folder. I used to look at it frequently to catch the occasional straggler, but I rarely do that now. I've set up an LLM to go through all my quarantined emails in the last N days, and send me an email on which of the quarantined emails probably should be viewed.
I'm OK missing out on a (very rare) good email if it means I don't have to deal with crap mass mails. And let me tell you: Life is great when you don't deal with mass mails.
i handle the overload a different way... i age everything out of my inbox one day at a time, each gets a label showing the remaining days; they start at 7 and count down. that way i only ever have 7 days of email to look at. it also makes it clear who the big offenders are... if 10% of the emails are some new marketing thing it's easy to see and unsubscribe. i do hate that there's still so much manual work involved though, i would love if marketers had to pay.
i like it in theory but there’s something in me that doesn’t want emails just discarded like that… i want to be off the list. a personal failing, i’m sure. :)
More people should be aware of their history. This text made the rounds in the late 1990s as spam was starting to become a problem. Everybody and their dog had their own “ultimate solution” to the spam problem, which they all thought was obviously the correct one, but all of them were more or less equally unworkable: <https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt>
I would advise reconsidering keeping the current format exactly. Something that would allow conventional email addresses to kept in a list that disambiguates them unambiguously would probably be a good idea.
You don't want to embed the entire email in JSON. Too many parsers past, present, and future tend to want to decode the entire JSON document into memory before doing anything else, and so you'd be forcing entire email documents to be held in memory at scale, which causes you major problems. I'd recommend something more like either a JSON header that defines what parts are in the email, followed by a normal MIME document, which is perfectly normal in HTTP with other things that use the format as well, or having the top level continue to be a MIME document and specify that the first part must be a JSON document containing the headers. JSON replacing the headers is generally something that would be a good idea, though.
That improves the ability of more language environments to be able to handle the email as a stream or in chunks with "normal" libraries and practices. MIME parsers in languages that tend to favor pulling everything into RAM as a string are still more likely to have been forced to face this issue already.
> You don't want to embed the entire email in JSON. Too many parsers past, present, and future tend to want to decode the entire JSON document into memory before doing anything else, and so you'd be forcing entire email documents to be held in memory at scale
Why? Even if your system loads emails into memory a whole email at a time, that doesn't imply that it will load large numbers of emails simultaneously. The kind of processing that can be done by stream-processing large numbers of emails in parallel seems rather limited to me.
> I'd recommend something more like either a JSON header that defines what parts are in the email, followed by a normal MIME document, which is perfectly normal in HTTP with other things that use the format as well, or having the top level continue to be a MIME document and specify that the first part must be a JSON document containing the headers. JSON replacing the headers is generally something that would be a good idea, though.
If we're specifically talking about being able to short-circuit after headers, then why not a JSON header followed by JSON representation of the body?
I think the network effects make email hard to replace, virtually everyone online has an email address. If this could include a migration path, with backwards compatibility with SMTP, I think it would have a better shot of getting adoption.
Modern email already depends on HTTP, with protocols like MTA-STS (https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8461/) using HTTPS/TLS to improve transit encryption, or Web Key Directory (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-koch-openpgp-webkey-s...) which uses HTTP for public key distribution. Personally I think these incremental improvements of SMTP are more promising than replacements, but we deserve better email however we can build it.
There is an easy way to mostly replace email over a decade, with the NewEmail protocol
NewEmailServers are able to send and receive messages using either the Email or the NewEmail protocol.
Before sending a message, the NewEmailServer checks a directory (similar to DNS) to see if any of the recipients are on another NewEmailServer. If so, the message is sent to those recipients via NewEmail. Others get it by Email.
Completely backward compatible. Once google/microsoft shift to NewEmail, the rest will follow quickly except some legacy servers. All that is needed is a standards body.
Basically what iOS messages does with SMS. I would note that this hasn't resulted in everyone using iOS messages as a communication protocol, but it does make users aware when it's not in use, with some inherent social pressure.
When dealing with any kind of network effect and existing user behavior, though, especially one as ingrained as email, I would highly recommend being judicious about using the word "just," given that these are mutually-reinforcing effects. Imagining a solution is a world away from implementing one.
Still, I think you're on the right track: create a new protocol on top of an old one, use the same input methods and user behaviors, call attention to when someone is not using it (e.g., green bubbles), and make it extremely easy for existing services to migrate to use it (i.e., the standard/standards body, notably NOT what Apple has done). One part that's missing here is some pressure to make this happen: positive pressure (economic, product sense, persuasion) or negative (economic, social, regulatory).
Yeah, this subject comes up every couple months. The problem is not getting it working. Its that email is a captured system at this point and the real work is various reputation management processes that the big providers control or you can't send email to/from them. They also have no real interest in letting you be your own email provider so its just pushing a rock up a hill grind, for what? To save <$100 a year piggybacking on another provider as a custom domain? or just use a free provider?
Having worked at a provider, that is not the psychology at all. The #1 priority is to keep the mail flowing. #2 incremental improvements to security, spam, reputation is a distant second. The other thing is, providers already know and have people who work on email standards, work in the ecosystem, etc. So once you're inside, with people who know whats going on, know the tools, know how things work intuitively without having to read a manual, theres less desire to change.
I have no personal experience. I've just read a lot of peoples experience around trying to do their own email hosting. It seems the majority give up after a couple years of nonstop blacklisting problems. It could simply be only people with issues post about it.
The stories have discouraged my from spending my time on it though.
As former Email Principal at major provider, sure, they run into blacklisting problems.
However, most of time, it's not that providers are blacklisting because "Ha ha ha, screw the little guy" but more "Yea, they are hosting on IP blocks with terrible reputation and spammers are absolute liars. I refuse to trust whatever they say, period."
If you have your own /24 or greater, you can become email provider. It's also just such a low margin business, it's not worth small businesses disrupting it.
I have found that if you harsh blacklist from most countries you'll never communicate from you'll save a lot of spam.
I blacklisted pretty much all of africa and arabic nations and china on the IP level, ( ensure you get the bgp routed datacenters in those nations too) and not only did i get less spam, but less automated bot attacks on my webserver.
The reason people talk about the blacklist is because its just so damn effective.
> First-contact consent: an unknown sender doesn't get into the mailbox; they land in a "requests" box with their first message visible (like Signal's message requests). You accept, and the thread opens forever. A stranger can knock on your door, which is the essential property of mail, but they can't fill up your living room.
I like this.
Question: can this e-mail specification/implementation also replace direct-messaging protocols (like WhatsApp)?
The unknown request will be buried in spam - a problem we have already, but worse.
And I do not want an infinite thread conversation. I want to be able to split off - and perhaps archive and export - different conversations by topic.
I recently had to some legal things, which included forwarding copies of a certain conversation to a lawyer. This turns out to be unreasonably difficult because email clients quote previous conversations. You want a clean thread of comment and reply about a specific topic. You don't get that.
You do get it on chat services, but there's no option there to create sub-conversations.
If I was redesigning email I would think long and hard about different use cases and workflows and start with an RFC. Protocols are far downstream of that.
> The unknown request will be buried in spam - a problem we have already, but worse.
Keep in mind that many people around the world already use this solution.
In my case, I give senders a mechanism to go into my inbox without my explicit approval. The server sends them an email with a URL. They follow the instructions, and their email gets whitelisted.
> The unknown request will be buried in spam - a problem we have already, but worse.
I feel like every one of these suggested changes to email comes with a functionally equivalent parody magic trick.
For this one, a magician has two stacks of cards: a tall stack of "spam" cards, and a small stack of "inbox" cards.
The magician moves the stacks apart to make a spot for a new "request" stack.
To start the stack, they pick up five "request" cards from the inbox stack with one hand while subtly pushing the entire stack of "spam" cards with the other hand to spot they made for the "request" stack.
They then pass the five cards they were holding behind their back, revealing them with the opposite hand and finally shuffling them into the now tall stack of "request" cards.
Ta da!
> If I was redesigning email I would think long and hard about different use cases and workflows and start with an RFC.
A magician sweeps 17 sloppy stacks of cards off the table. They then show how the first 15 cards they pick up can more easily be arranged in only three stacks. Voila! Everybody claps.
While the audience members put money in the hat, the pedants stick around and watch the magician pick up the rest of the cards and end up with 18 sloppy stacks by the time the audience for the next show arrives.
Edit: clarification
Edit 2: I forgot this part: "Protocols are far downstream of that." So imagine 8 tiny tables below the main one which somehow end up with more than 52 cards in each of their 17 sloppy stacks.
Greylisting is not perfect, not even close, but it allows servers to reject huge amounts of garbage mail while allowing new mail from unexpected parties without user intervention.
It is similar but not the same thing. It does not have anything to do with the email being legit (non spam) or not. It only catches emails that do not do what they supposed to do when they are deferred for a little bit. They are supposed to try again later. (A super nice feature of email which protects you from losing all incoming emails when your server is down for a short time). The reasoning here is hopefully a spam script or software will not implement the standard properly or will skip apparently broken destinations.
What parent wants is also possible and I remember people doing it as far back as the early 2000s. You would basically manually whitelist an email or have them bypass the list (once or always) with something like a key word or token sort of like a captcha which can be shared off band.
"We" tried this in the late 1990s. I remember writing an exim config to do this a couple of ways back in my ISP times:
1. "The recipient will not get this message until you authenticate yourself as a legitimate sender at this URL [...]" - resulted in people never getting mail from no-reply addresses they cared about (banks, e-com, etc.)
2. "This sender has sent you an email, with this subject and this first paragraph. Click here to whitelist, here to blacklist" - created a lot of churn on first setup that users didn't like as a UX
Baking it into the protocol - even now in SMTP and IMAP land - is doable, but would be resisted by email providers who, for example, make their money selling data to marketing agencies. Like, you know, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo...
I've seen other approaches proposed - even at IETF level - over the years, including digital postage stamps (sender pays to send email, your server gets paid, and may reject non-stamped/paying email), but it's the usual network effect: until it becomes widely supported it won't "stick". The stuff that has been adopted has basically been stuff that Google likes, period.
It also misses one of the biggest fundamental problems with SMTP: Lack of per-recipient replies. Though you could potentially mandate a single recipient per request. We wrote a plugin to emulate that in Haraka, where you just 400 (temp fail) each subsequent recipient. The downside is some sources just plain don't retry.
> Optional postage for strangers: the server can answer a first contact with a 402. Configurable per mailbox; the cost of cold spamming stops being zero.
Interesting take re putting a cost on spam. Perhaps another take would be functionally implementing introductions.
> First-contact consent: an unknown sender doesn't get into the mailbox; they land in a "requests" box with their first message visible (like Signal's message requests). You accept, and the thread opens forever. A stranger can knock on your door, which is the essential property of mail, but they can't fill up your living room.
Unfortunately, this will only move the problem, and only reduce it in the case when all outside communication is ignored.
We could add a friend-of-friend for 1 degree of separation (Alice gets an email from Bob, she doesn't know Bob, so it would go into her Requests folder. But Charlie knows Bob and has said 'yes this guy is legit' and Alice has configured her email to trust Charlie's email recommendations up to 2 degrees of separation, so it goes into the inbox with an explanation that it was allowed by Charlie's trust of Bob).
And poof, we've poorly remembered Web of Trust from 20 years ago!
Overall I do love the idea of HTMP and if we could get it to easily fall back to standard old bad email, I think it could start as a niche and then upgrade towards HTMP over time as more clients adopted support for it.
I think a lot of these concepts are fun/interesting, but I like that email today functions more like a mailbox than WhatsApp or Telegram. Whilst digital (or paper) spam is obnoxious I dislike the idea of binning every sender into a "unread" box until I approve them. I miss unreads all the time across apps like X and Telegram.
As a first step I would focus on something like broad S/MIME support. Unfortunately I suspect that the biggest email providers are disincentivized from doing this as it would disrupt their business models.
>The goal is not to replace the current mail system, heaven forbid!, but to learn, have fun and discover current technologies to swap out every element: sending, receiving, gateway, keys, and so on.
HTTP? It would be a more interesting thought experiment with CoAP. And, is it really “modern” if it still uses a model (essentially) requiring stateful compute like JMAP?
GUIs cannot be built either before or during the specification of a protocol. In fact, this is the part that should have the least weight. There are important steps, such as system auditing or making design decisions (like certificate rotation), that are not addressed. However, the goal is not to replace SMTP/IMAP, but rather to show how modern tools, when properly assembled, can replace older protocols with serious design flaws.
JMAP is flexible, mature, and easy to connect with current technologies. It's a better option.
> At the moment email's gui is horrible on all platforms without exception.
This is obviously a matter of opinion. Of course there are endless different email GUIs, on all the platforms; if you don't like one, there are many alternatives.
I cannot imagine that a "decent GUI" by modern web-development standards could be anything I'd prefer to what already exists. Email works and generally doesn't let designer ego get in the way.
> At the moment email's gui is horrible on all platforms without exception.
How can you say that when it's one of the benefits of email that it's an open protocol and there's thousands of different apps built on top of it. Terminal UIs, web interfaces, chat interfaces etc. - that should be one of the cases where there's a GUI for anyone.
FWIW, I'm on desktop but I do have JS disabled (more precisely, I use NoScript).
This results in the top and left-side bars staying decorative and unobtrusive, but the concurrent visitor counter thingy is floating well above the bottom-right of the page. But then, as I shrink in the page width, the left-side bar and the concurrent visitor counter swap sides, and also a bunch of the content from the top is added to a new bar at the bottom. Eventually, the horizontal space between the side components becomes irrelevant such that they function as an additional bottom bar. At which point, maybe 40% of the vertical space is used for navigation and other shiny toys. This is really annoying, and the overall experience is inconsistent across widths.
(Also, at all widths, the top-bar has a transparent background, so main page text interferes with top-bar text as it scrolls.)
All of this is done in CSS, so presumably it can be fixed that way too.
Content-addressed email breaks mailing lists, as those need to be able to add headers for subscribe/unsubscribe/list id, etc. There is a reason DKIM allows you to pick which headers to sign.
Asymmetric signature generation has been a solved problem for more than a quarter of a century. So are distributed hash tables. I can't believe email hasn't been replaced. My take on it is to follow the money. Microsoft, Google and Yahoo have a vested interest in being the only big identity providers along probably with some 3 letters agencies.
I'd take this the opposite direction - HTTP should get more like SMTP.
Take this thought experiment - how does nearly every other standard protocol (DNS, SMTP, etc.) except for HTTP survive at scale without server-side load balancing?
Thankfully we're heading in this direction due to happy eyeballs and related client-side retry mechanisms.
I'm very excited by this idea. I feel like email/chat is ripe for reinvention.
I don't agree with "Domain control as a fallback", as the author said "a domain is not owned, it is rented" and I want to normalise the idea that if you lose your private key, you need to start again. I hate that we keep giving so much authority to domains, it's such a big weakness. The author even left the key rotation chain out of the initial implementation.
I still think root/signer keys or sigchains are decent options.
I like that the author at least head fakes towards postage, which is how spam gets solved, for real. It's far too late for SMTP, but I don't mind folks thinking hard about it.
Email currently uses an HTTP request to https://mta-sts.<domain>/.well-known/mta-sts.txt, per RFC 8461. Depending on HTTPS/TLS instead of DNSSEC is one major reason you see this approach gaining popularity.
Id think its for enduser flexibility and convenience. Its more involved to alter DNS records vs just adding a text line to a webpage and hitting that default endpoint as standard.
Same way LetsEncrypt allows the easiest setup with the .wellknown endpoint , where a user may not have DNS access beyond the initial A record setup.
It's not a good idea, I'd call it terrible in fact. We have MX Records, might as well use those. If not, use SRV records. Requiring mail server to involved in root of the domain is terrible idea.
Unfortunately, stopped reading at one moment, because though the idea might be interesting, the packaging was unbearable. The obnoxious real time visitors counter seriously screws with my screen reader. I don't care how many people are reading this every 3 seconds updated not only with numbers, but with randomly chosen emois in my speech stream.
If you have a website, please, don't subject your visitors to something like that.
I liked the counters on the old 90s/2000s web but it was best at the bottom of the page cause it was easy to ignore. I can't ever see me wanting a moving box telling me other people are reading the same article as me but if I did it would blend in better.
Email is more than a technology its a community. There have been plenty of technical attempts at replacing it but they have failed to un-seat email because they focus only on the technology aspect which as you have found is largely a solved problem although... getting the details right might be hard. You need buy in from the community which is not just users but also businesses and organizations that use email which is everyone from CEOs to church leaders. It's not enough to fix email you have to get buy in from the community to make a meaningful change and I don't see anything here that would do that. This isn't really a criticism, just an insight I offer. I work in this field and we're trying to get out of it cause managing email sucks. I would love something new to take its place but the community has heard so many promises that never came to fruition, when that happens you either need a better promise(harder than it seems) or you need credibility which may be very difficult in the current climate. Not an unsolvable problem, those don't exist but sometimes the lever you need to solve the problem is further than you can reach alone and this is one of those times.
Anecdotally, I don't use a screen reader and also couldn't care less on the visitors on the site. I doubt anyone but you is interested in this, and probably this number is slightly lower just because of that popup
The combination of "I have an idea for changing one of the fundamental experiences of modern life" and "my website is obnoxious and hostile" didn't really work for me.
Username is your public key, password is your private key. So we get end to end encryption and account ownership out of the box. Something similar to how .onion addresses work.
Needing easy to remember addresses? Build aliases on top of that. Needing server-side automation? Handle trusted server your private key.
Also, almost everyone carry a 24/7 powered and Internet connected device in their pockets. The Internet - network that allows globally sending any data between devices. Maybe with full redesign third-party email servers should be made optional.
I believe we should focus less on how to redesign whole service and build more universal layers instead.
First, vsending any data to any machine. Second, optionally remotely accessing our data. Third, mail-like format of data.
I don't want to replicate email. I want to fix it.
Sending email should not be free. It should be really, really cheap to send an email to one person (like a fraction of a fraction of a cent), but get exponentially more expensive the more you send.
People shouldn't be able to send emails to you without your prior approval (which you can revoke at an instant).
The recipient should be able to charge a tack-on fee for having email sent to him. I should be able to charge annoying people a lot to send to me, and charge my friends almost nothing. People who send annoying stuff to me should pay more to get my attention.
All of a sudden, forwarding that stupid article without thinking about the content (or even reading the article they're sending) will be second guessed. Save the money (and time), by sending only worthwhile stuff that you penned.
> People shouldn't be able to send emails to you without your prior approval (which you can revoke at an instant).
this sounds terrible... i've gotten so many useful random emails from strangers over the years.
Depends how it's designed. I've been doing something similar for almost a decade. If I get an email from a non-whitelisted person, they get an auto reply asking them to go through a simple hoop. Once they do that, the email lands in my inbox.
Yes, many people go through that hoop!
I can still see their emails if they don't. They site in a Quarantine folder. I used to look at it frequently to catch the occasional straggler, but I rarely do that now. I've set up an LLM to go through all my quarantined emails in the last N days, and send me an email on which of the quarantined emails probably should be viewed.
I'm OK missing out on a (very rare) good email if it means I don't have to deal with crap mass mails. And let me tell you: Life is great when you don't deal with mass mails.
ah, quarantine makes sense
i handle the overload a different way... i age everything out of my inbox one day at a time, each gets a label showing the remaining days; they start at 7 and count down. that way i only ever have 7 days of email to look at. it also makes it clear who the big offenders are... if 10% of the emails are some new marketing thing it's easy to see and unsubscribe. i do hate that there's still so much manual work involved though, i would love if marketers had to pay.
> if 10% of the emails are some new marketing thing it's easy to see and unsubscribe
I built my system because I tired of finding ways to unsubscribe.
Now I can subscribe without abandon and never worry about any of those emails coming into my inbox.
i like it in theory but there’s something in me that doesn’t want emails just discarded like that… i want to be off the list. a personal failing, i’m sure. :)
Do you have a writeup somewhere about how this system works?
More people should be aware of their history. This text made the rounds in the late 1990s as spam was starting to become a problem. Everybody and their dog had their own “ultimate solution” to the spam problem, which they all thought was obviously the correct one, but all of them were more or less equally unworkable: <https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt>
To be clear, "this text" refers to the link at the end, not to TFA, correct?
I would advise reconsidering keeping the current format exactly. Something that would allow conventional email addresses to kept in a list that disambiguates them unambiguously would probably be a good idea.
You don't want to embed the entire email in JSON. Too many parsers past, present, and future tend to want to decode the entire JSON document into memory before doing anything else, and so you'd be forcing entire email documents to be held in memory at scale, which causes you major problems. I'd recommend something more like either a JSON header that defines what parts are in the email, followed by a normal MIME document, which is perfectly normal in HTTP with other things that use the format as well, or having the top level continue to be a MIME document and specify that the first part must be a JSON document containing the headers. JSON replacing the headers is generally something that would be a good idea, though.
That improves the ability of more language environments to be able to handle the email as a stream or in chunks with "normal" libraries and practices. MIME parsers in languages that tend to favor pulling everything into RAM as a string are still more likely to have been forced to face this issue already.
> You don't want to embed the entire email in JSON. Too many parsers past, present, and future tend to want to decode the entire JSON document into memory before doing anything else, and so you'd be forcing entire email documents to be held in memory at scale
Why? Even if your system loads emails into memory a whole email at a time, that doesn't imply that it will load large numbers of emails simultaneously. The kind of processing that can be done by stream-processing large numbers of emails in parallel seems rather limited to me.
> I'd recommend something more like either a JSON header that defines what parts are in the email, followed by a normal MIME document, which is perfectly normal in HTTP with other things that use the format as well, or having the top level continue to be a MIME document and specify that the first part must be a JSON document containing the headers. JSON replacing the headers is generally something that would be a good idea, though.
If we're specifically talking about being able to short-circuit after headers, then why not a JSON header followed by JSON representation of the body?
I think the network effects make email hard to replace, virtually everyone online has an email address. If this could include a migration path, with backwards compatibility with SMTP, I think it would have a better shot of getting adoption.
Modern email already depends on HTTP, with protocols like MTA-STS (https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8461/) using HTTPS/TLS to improve transit encryption, or Web Key Directory (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-koch-openpgp-webkey-s...) which uses HTTP for public key distribution. Personally I think these incremental improvements of SMTP are more promising than replacements, but we deserve better email however we can build it.
> we deserve better email however we can build it
Let's start with grouping messages into conversations reliably. Whatever black magic they are currently using is almost there, but has it's flaws.
There is an easy way to mostly replace email over a decade, with the NewEmail protocol
NewEmailServers are able to send and receive messages using either the Email or the NewEmail protocol.
Before sending a message, the NewEmailServer checks a directory (similar to DNS) to see if any of the recipients are on another NewEmailServer. If so, the message is sent to those recipients via NewEmail. Others get it by Email.
Completely backward compatible. Once google/microsoft shift to NewEmail, the rest will follow quickly except some legacy servers. All that is needed is a standards body.
Basically what iOS messages does with SMS. I would note that this hasn't resulted in everyone using iOS messages as a communication protocol, but it does make users aware when it's not in use, with some inherent social pressure.
When dealing with any kind of network effect and existing user behavior, though, especially one as ingrained as email, I would highly recommend being judicious about using the word "just," given that these are mutually-reinforcing effects. Imagining a solution is a world away from implementing one.
Still, I think you're on the right track: create a new protocol on top of an old one, use the same input methods and user behaviors, call attention to when someone is not using it (e.g., green bubbles), and make it extremely easy for existing services to migrate to use it (i.e., the standard/standards body, notably NOT what Apple has done). One part that's missing here is some pressure to make this happen: positive pressure (economic, product sense, persuasion) or negative (economic, social, regulatory).
The sad thing is that the only successful attempts at tackling its popularity are proprietary, closed ecosystems.
Yeah, this subject comes up every couple months. The problem is not getting it working. Its that email is a captured system at this point and the real work is various reputation management processes that the big providers control or you can't send email to/from them. They also have no real interest in letting you be your own email provider so its just pushing a rock up a hill grind, for what? To save <$100 a year piggybacking on another provider as a custom domain? or just use a free provider?
Having worked at a provider, that is not the psychology at all. The #1 priority is to keep the mail flowing. #2 incremental improvements to security, spam, reputation is a distant second. The other thing is, providers already know and have people who work on email standards, work in the ecosystem, etc. So once you're inside, with people who know whats going on, know the tools, know how things work intuitively without having to read a manual, theres less desire to change.
I have no personal experience. I've just read a lot of peoples experience around trying to do their own email hosting. It seems the majority give up after a couple years of nonstop blacklisting problems. It could simply be only people with issues post about it.
The stories have discouraged my from spending my time on it though.
As former Email Principal at major provider, sure, they run into blacklisting problems.
However, most of time, it's not that providers are blacklisting because "Ha ha ha, screw the little guy" but more "Yea, they are hosting on IP blocks with terrible reputation and spammers are absolute liars. I refuse to trust whatever they say, period."
If you have your own /24 or greater, you can become email provider. It's also just such a low margin business, it's not worth small businesses disrupting it.
I have found that if you harsh blacklist from most countries you'll never communicate from you'll save a lot of spam.
I blacklisted pretty much all of africa and arabic nations and china on the IP level, ( ensure you get the bgp routed datacenters in those nations too) and not only did i get less spam, but less automated bot attacks on my webserver.
The reason people talk about the blacklist is because its just so damn effective.
> First-contact consent: an unknown sender doesn't get into the mailbox; they land in a "requests" box with their first message visible (like Signal's message requests). You accept, and the thread opens forever. A stranger can knock on your door, which is the essential property of mail, but they can't fill up your living room.
I like this.
Question: can this e-mail specification/implementation also replace direct-messaging protocols (like WhatsApp)?
The unknown request will be buried in spam - a problem we have already, but worse.
And I do not want an infinite thread conversation. I want to be able to split off - and perhaps archive and export - different conversations by topic.
I recently had to some legal things, which included forwarding copies of a certain conversation to a lawyer. This turns out to be unreasonably difficult because email clients quote previous conversations. You want a clean thread of comment and reply about a specific topic. You don't get that.
You do get it on chat services, but there's no option there to create sub-conversations.
If I was redesigning email I would think long and hard about different use cases and workflows and start with an RFC. Protocols are far downstream of that.
> The unknown request will be buried in spam - a problem we have already, but worse.
Keep in mind that many people around the world already use this solution.
In my case, I give senders a mechanism to go into my inbox without my explicit approval. The server sends them an email with a URL. They follow the instructions, and their email gets whitelisted.
https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-email-probl...
> The unknown request will be buried in spam - a problem we have already, but worse.
I feel like every one of these suggested changes to email comes with a functionally equivalent parody magic trick.
For this one, a magician has two stacks of cards: a tall stack of "spam" cards, and a small stack of "inbox" cards.
The magician moves the stacks apart to make a spot for a new "request" stack.
To start the stack, they pick up five "request" cards from the inbox stack with one hand while subtly pushing the entire stack of "spam" cards with the other hand to spot they made for the "request" stack.
They then pass the five cards they were holding behind their back, revealing them with the opposite hand and finally shuffling them into the now tall stack of "request" cards.
Ta da!
> If I was redesigning email I would think long and hard about different use cases and workflows and start with an RFC.
A magician sweeps 17 sloppy stacks of cards off the table. They then show how the first 15 cards they pick up can more easily be arranged in only three stacks. Voila! Everybody claps.
While the audience members put money in the hat, the pedants stick around and watch the magician pick up the rest of the cards and end up with 18 sloppy stacks by the time the audience for the next show arrives.
Edit: clarification
Edit 2: I forgot this part: "Protocols are far downstream of that." So imagine 8 tiny tables below the main one which somehow end up with more than 52 cards in each of their 17 sloppy stacks.
> email clients quote previous conversations.
Surely only if you configure them that way. At least I can turn that off in my email client, Thunderbird.
Nina xx
> You do get it on chat services, but there's no option there to create sub-conversations.
It's called threads - even Matrix has these
I (and many others) do this:
https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-email-probl...
(Not answering your question, but referring to the approach).
>Question: can this e-mail specification/implementation also replace direct-messaging protocols (like WhatsApp)?
Deltachat
> I like this.
Honestly, I'd want this as a default. I wonder if a mailserver can be configure like this. Doesn't sound too hard, does it?
Believe it or don't, most mailservers actually are set up this way, but it's completely invisible to the user: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greylisting_(email)
Greylisting is not perfect, not even close, but it allows servers to reject huge amounts of garbage mail while allowing new mail from unexpected parties without user intervention.
It is similar but not the same thing. It does not have anything to do with the email being legit (non spam) or not. It only catches emails that do not do what they supposed to do when they are deferred for a little bit. They are supposed to try again later. (A super nice feature of email which protects you from losing all incoming emails when your server is down for a short time). The reasoning here is hopefully a spam script or software will not implement the standard properly or will skip apparently broken destinations.
What parent wants is also possible and I remember people doing it as far back as the early 2000s. You would basically manually whitelist an email or have them bypass the list (once or always) with something like a key word or token sort of like a captcha which can be shared off band.
It's definitely possible, a few companies do it, and let me tell you: People hate it.
I've been doing it for almost a decade. Only one person has complained. I'm surprised by the hoops people are willing to go through to contact me.
https://blog.nawaz.org/posts/2018/Sep/solving-my-email-probl...
"We" tried this in the late 1990s. I remember writing an exim config to do this a couple of ways back in my ISP times:
1. "The recipient will not get this message until you authenticate yourself as a legitimate sender at this URL [...]" - resulted in people never getting mail from no-reply addresses they cared about (banks, e-com, etc.)
2. "This sender has sent you an email, with this subject and this first paragraph. Click here to whitelist, here to blacklist" - created a lot of churn on first setup that users didn't like as a UX
Baking it into the protocol - even now in SMTP and IMAP land - is doable, but would be resisted by email providers who, for example, make their money selling data to marketing agencies. Like, you know, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo...
I've seen other approaches proposed - even at IETF level - over the years, including digital postage stamps (sender pays to send email, your server gets paid, and may reject non-stamped/paying email), but it's the usual network effect: until it becomes widely supported it won't "stick". The stuff that has been adopted has basically been stuff that Google likes, period.
It also misses one of the biggest fundamental problems with SMTP: Lack of per-recipient replies. Though you could potentially mandate a single recipient per request. We wrote a plugin to emulate that in Haraka, where you just 400 (temp fail) each subsequent recipient. The downside is some sources just plain don't retry.
Spark email client supports this. It’s great
Pretty sure 37signals' email/calendar offering ("Hey") works this way.
other email clients/services like Hey etc do this.
at one point Gmail had a service for this - if I remember well - but google being google - I guess it was just a promotion project for someone.
Is there any reason they shouldn't be the same?
This is the way hey.com operates. It's nice.
A better protocol for email seems like it should be lower on the list compared to a better protocol for phone calls.
And don't just say we'll build that on HTTP too!
> Optional postage for strangers: the server can answer a first contact with a 402. Configurable per mailbox; the cost of cold spamming stops being zero.
Interesting take re putting a cost on spam. Perhaps another take would be functionally implementing introductions.
> First-contact consent: an unknown sender doesn't get into the mailbox; they land in a "requests" box with their first message visible (like Signal's message requests). You accept, and the thread opens forever. A stranger can knock on your door, which is the essential property of mail, but they can't fill up your living room.
Unfortunately, this will only move the problem, and only reduce it in the case when all outside communication is ignored.
Yeah the 'Requests' folder just becomes the new Inbox folder.
Email clients already highlight/filter people in your contacts
We could add a friend-of-friend for 1 degree of separation (Alice gets an email from Bob, she doesn't know Bob, so it would go into her Requests folder. But Charlie knows Bob and has said 'yes this guy is legit' and Alice has configured her email to trust Charlie's email recommendations up to 2 degrees of separation, so it goes into the inbox with an explanation that it was allowed by Charlie's trust of Bob).
And poof, we've poorly remembered Web of Trust from 20 years ago!
Overall I do love the idea of HTMP and if we could get it to easily fall back to standard old bad email, I think it could start as a niche and then upgrade towards HTMP over time as more clients adopted support for it.
I think a lot of these concepts are fun/interesting, but I like that email today functions more like a mailbox than WhatsApp or Telegram. Whilst digital (or paper) spam is obnoxious I dislike the idea of binning every sender into a "unread" box until I approve them. I miss unreads all the time across apps like X and Telegram.
As a first step I would focus on something like broad S/MIME support. Unfortunately I suspect that the biggest email providers are disincentivized from doing this as it would disrupt their business models.
> Let's design the successor to email on top of HTTP
You can stop there, I've heard enough. Not everything is hypertext.
And HTTP transports many, many more things than hypertext. It seems like a sensible choice for this use case in terms of capabilities.
From the first paragraph:
>The goal is not to replace the current mail system, heaven forbid!, but to learn, have fun and discover current technologies to swap out every element: sending, receiving, gateway, keys, and so on.
It's all for fun.
Usually, informed people only read the headline.
HTTP? It would be a more interesting thought experiment with CoAP. And, is it really “modern” if it still uses a model (essentially) requiring stateful compute like JMAP?
Self-ejecting panels on three sides of the website are a horrible user experience.
Other than that...
The most important thing is not the protocol, it's the gui.
At the moment email's gui is horrible on all platforms without exception.
If/when a decent gui appears, protocols will follow.
Also, JMAP did reading can probably be just WebDAV?
GUIs cannot be built either before or during the specification of a protocol. In fact, this is the part that should have the least weight. There are important steps, such as system auditing or making design decisions (like certificate rotation), that are not addressed. However, the goal is not to replace SMTP/IMAP, but rather to show how modern tools, when properly assembled, can replace older protocols with serious design flaws. JMAP is flexible, mature, and easy to connect with current technologies. It's a better option.
> At the moment email's gui is horrible on all platforms without exception.
This is obviously a matter of opinion. Of course there are endless different email GUIs, on all the platforms; if you don't like one, there are many alternatives.
I cannot imagine that a "decent GUI" by modern web-development standards could be anything I'd prefer to what already exists. Email works and generally doesn't let designer ego get in the way.
> At the moment email's gui is horrible on all platforms without exception.
How can you say that when it's one of the benefits of email that it's an open protocol and there's thousands of different apps built on top of it. Terminal UIs, web interfaces, chat interfaces etc. - that should be one of the cases where there's a GUI for anyone.
Why do you find the panel experience so bad?
It's very annoying on mobile, covering half of the page all the time
When you scroll down, they should all disappear. Do you have JavaScript disabled? What browser and device are you using?
FWIW, I'm on desktop but I do have JS disabled (more precisely, I use NoScript).
This results in the top and left-side bars staying decorative and unobtrusive, but the concurrent visitor counter thingy is floating well above the bottom-right of the page. But then, as I shrink in the page width, the left-side bar and the concurrent visitor counter swap sides, and also a bunch of the content from the top is added to a new bar at the bottom. Eventually, the horizontal space between the side components becomes irrelevant such that they function as an additional bottom bar. At which point, maybe 40% of the vertical space is used for navigation and other shiny toys. This is really annoying, and the overall experience is inconsistent across widths.
(Also, at all widths, the top-bar has a transparent background, so main page text interferes with top-bar text as it scrolls.)
All of this is done in CSS, so presumably it can be fixed that way too.
Content-addressed email breaks mailing lists, as those need to be able to add headers for subscribe/unsubscribe/list id, etc. There is a reason DKIM allows you to pick which headers to sign.
Do we need mailing lists at all?
I Linus Torvalds needs them. And that's a good enough reason for their existence as far as I'm concerned.
The irony here that HTTP headers are descended directly from RFC822 email headers.
Copies the mistake from PGP with the unencrypted metadata.
Asymmetric signature generation has been a solved problem for more than a quarter of a century. So are distributed hash tables. I can't believe email hasn't been replaced. My take on it is to follow the money. Microsoft, Google and Yahoo have a vested interest in being the only big identity providers along probably with some 3 letters agencies.
I'd take this the opposite direction - HTTP should get more like SMTP.
Take this thought experiment - how does nearly every other standard protocol (DNS, SMTP, etc.) except for HTTP survive at scale without server-side load balancing?
Thankfully we're heading in this direction due to happy eyeballs and related client-side retry mechanisms.
I'm very excited by this idea. I feel like email/chat is ripe for reinvention.
I don't agree with "Domain control as a fallback", as the author said "a domain is not owned, it is rented" and I want to normalise the idea that if you lose your private key, you need to start again. I hate that we keep giving so much authority to domains, it's such a big weakness. The author even left the key rotation chain out of the initial implementation.
I still think root/signer keys or sigchains are decent options.
I like that the author at least head fakes towards postage, which is how spam gets solved, for real. It's far too late for SMTP, but I don't mind folks thinking hard about it.
This is measurably worse in every way if only by saying you've thrown out everyone's existing mail stacks.
No, no one wants to do that.
Old version:
* DNS lookup for MX record
New version
* DNS lookup for A record
* HTTP request for .wellknown/htmp/known_hosts
Not sure why this is being considered as an improvement?
> each mailbox of a domain on a different provider
Why is this useful/necessary or even 'good'?
Email currently uses an HTTP request to https://mta-sts.<domain>/.well-known/mta-sts.txt, per RFC 8461. Depending on HTTPS/TLS instead of DNSSEC is one major reason you see this approach gaining popularity.
Id think its for enduser flexibility and convenience. Its more involved to alter DNS records vs just adding a text line to a webpage and hitting that default endpoint as standard. Same way LetsEncrypt allows the easiest setup with the .wellknown endpoint , where a user may not have DNS access beyond the initial A record setup.
It's not a good idea, I'd call it terrible in fact. We have MX Records, might as well use those. If not, use SRV records. Requiring mail server to involved in root of the domain is terrible idea.
still better than CoI
Unfortunately, stopped reading at one moment, because though the idea might be interesting, the packaging was unbearable. The obnoxious real time visitors counter seriously screws with my screen reader. I don't care how many people are reading this every 3 seconds updated not only with numbers, but with randomly chosen emois in my speech stream.
If you have a website, please, don't subject your visitors to something like that.
I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience. I've hidden the counter for screen readers. Please try again when you're ready.
I liked the counters on the old 90s/2000s web but it was best at the bottom of the page cause it was easy to ignore. I can't ever see me wanting a moving box telling me other people are reading the same article as me but if I did it would blend in better.
Email is more than a technology its a community. There have been plenty of technical attempts at replacing it but they have failed to un-seat email because they focus only on the technology aspect which as you have found is largely a solved problem although... getting the details right might be hard. You need buy in from the community which is not just users but also businesses and organizations that use email which is everyone from CEOs to church leaders. It's not enough to fix email you have to get buy in from the community to make a meaningful change and I don't see anything here that would do that. This isn't really a criticism, just an insight I offer. I work in this field and we're trying to get out of it cause managing email sucks. I would love something new to take its place but the community has heard so many promises that never came to fruition, when that happens you either need a better promise(harder than it seems) or you need credibility which may be very difficult in the current climate. Not an unsolvable problem, those don't exist but sometimes the lever you need to solve the problem is further than you can reach alone and this is one of those times.
Anecdotally, I don't use a screen reader and also couldn't care less on the visitors on the site. I doubt anyone but you is interested in this, and probably this number is slightly lower just because of that popup
The combination of "I have an idea for changing one of the fundamental experiences of modern life" and "my website is obnoxious and hostile" didn't really work for me.
The entire website is accessible; I dedicated ample time to it. This was a minor oversight, but I wouldn't call it hostility.
Mistakes happen.
Thanks for the change.
Here is another, not so new, idea:
Username is your public key, password is your private key. So we get end to end encryption and account ownership out of the box. Something similar to how .onion addresses work. Needing easy to remember addresses? Build aliases on top of that. Needing server-side automation? Handle trusted server your private key.
Also, almost everyone carry a 24/7 powered and Internet connected device in their pockets. The Internet - network that allows globally sending any data between devices. Maybe with full redesign third-party email servers should be made optional.
I believe we should focus less on how to redesign whole service and build more universal layers instead. First, vsending any data to any machine. Second, optionally remotely accessing our data. Third, mail-like format of data.