Most of the PC gaming audience is on Windows, so Windows is still the primary target being developed against. Having better Vulkan on Windows means more support for Vulkan in games in the pipeline, which means better Linux support in those games over time, which ultimately benefits Steam and their hardware.
> users are still served only by the proprietary driver [...] An open source Vulkan driver on Windows opens up a number of possibilities: a shared codebase across platforms, easier debugging and experimentation, faster turnaround on fixes, and a path for the community (e.g., game developers) to report problems or contribute improvements that benefit everyone regardless of operating system.
To me, the argument against a proprietary driver seems extremely weak if you're running Windows anyway, but I guess they see it more that if more game devs can run the RADV driver, they can get wider testing (or a simpler story for devs to test at least) and backdoor improvements into the Linux side?
I guess I dont understand the "a shared codebase across platforms, easier debugging and experimentation," comment. Shared RADV codebase? Or shared game engine code, at least the specific parts of the engine that target Vulkan x Radeon (how big is that really?). Similarly I guess "debugging" here is tracking down odd ball RADV bugs where you could then run it in windows to see if its a linux thing or a RADV thing?
> To me, the argument against a proprietary driver seems extremely weak if you're running Windows anyway, but I guess they see it more that if more game devs can run the RADV driver, they can get wider testing (or a simpler story for devs to test at least) and backdoor improvements into the Linux side?
Are you using an AMD driver?
Let me share my experience. One day, you wake up and your GPU driver is gone for no reason. I'm not even joking here—the recent driver update broke the driver for many users. Launch Battlefield 6, and your driver is... gone. A new driver update comes out... Launch Battlefield 6, hard freeze. Improvement. I'm still running an older "blessed" driver version for this reason, and I'm scared to update.
I had an rx 5700xt where one version worked on bf4 but it didn't work on doom eternal. Meanwhile the version had unusable performance when streaming my game to friends. So any time I wanted to play games with friends I had to reinstall an older version. This stayed an issue for months with no communication from AMD.
My current rx6900xt meanwhile has quite a few other stalls and crashes, and doesn't get any of the cool rocm support the 7000series gets.
So my next gpu will be an nvidia. Paying over a thousand euros for a gpu, only to get your support dropped after 2(two!) years of shoddy drivers is just unbearable.
I understood shoddy drivers in the R series, Vega(another lemon i bought) as well, AMD was flat out broke. But by now they surely have some money left over from the ryzen success to make their gpus at least stable.
Game devs testing against the same driver on both platforms would probably surface RADV issues faster than the current Linux-only audience does, and as a linux gamer I couldn't be more happier.
Lenovo has already broken rank and Windows is now a paid extra add-on, the default being a popular Linux distro pre-installed unless you wanna pay extra.
The majority of their range is now provided this way.
The reality, Linux is now good enough for students and grandpa alike, plenty of customers who now wouldn’t give a toss to pay the extra price for the Microsoft branded OS.
With Ms Office barely existing anymore the old lock-in is increasingly tenuous.
I often get into YouTube rabbit holes about extinct operating systems and alternative computer architectures. And this one story comes up time and again: Microsoft killing off a competitor with scummy business tactics.
Like basically sending thugs to Japanese computer sellers and threatening to revoke their Windows licenses if they even offered customers an option to pre-install alternative operating systems!!
Many or most of those 95% who are just using Windows for PC games and using a web browser would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out a Linux distro like Bazzite.
I used to boot into Windows regularly to play video games. I haven't booted into Windows in ages. Proton is really good, and the major web browsers work the same on -at minimum- Windows, OSX, and Linux.
Plus, it's been my experience that drivers for AMD's graphics cards just work better on Linux... especially for older games. It helps that the folks writing them aren't working for "AI"-crazy companies that have probably massively slashed the resources they're giving the driver programmers for their consumer-grade cards. (After all, why spend any money on software for video games when you can spend that money on software for "AI" stuff and get a much larger ROI?)
> Many or most of those 95% who are just using Windows for PC games and using a web browser would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out a Linux distro like Bazzite.
This is true until you consider what that exact casual market looks like. Mainstream casual PC gamers are overwhelmingly concentrated in live service multiplayer AAA games with kernel level anticheat. Fortnite, League of Legends, Valorant, Call of Duty, Apex Legends, etc.
So it's kind of a hard spot where yes, 95% of casual windows gamers would in theory be much better off on Linux but the Catch-22 is the games that market is mostly concentrated on is the single category that still does not work on Linux.
It's not like Windows is an OS they love, it's just a mandatory anti-cheat wall, but its a wall Linux can't breach yet.
So, to be clear, and to really drive this point home. Gaming on Linux is absolutely viable and practical it's just the efforts are sunken by bad developers who refuse to enable compatibility or figure out a better solution.
"games that market is mostly concentrated on is the single category that still does not work on Linux."
All of the games you described have and will work on Linux perfectly fine under proton, it is the developers CHOICE for these games not to work.
> "games that market is mostly concentrated on is the single category that still does not work on Linux."
Yeah. That single category is "games that the devs have done the extra work needed to make them not run in Proton". There's no consistent game genre, age, or intended audience... it's just whether or not the dev decided that running on the Steam Deck, SteamOS, and the various Linux distros was something that they were actively going to block. [0]
[0] An illustrative case is Apex Legends. It waffled back and forth between "permitted to run under Proton" and "not permitted", and eventually landed in the "not permitted" bucket. And no, "'competitive' shooters" is not the category that this fits in because shooters like Hunt: Showdown and Counterstrike work just fine with Proton.
The problem is most people "who are just using Windows for PC games and using a web browser" are not a good fit for Linux. They don't install their OS themselves so cannot install a Linux distro. They don't do their own regular maintenance so forced updates are necessary. They expect software like Office to be available - not alternatives that work a bit differently and have buttons in unfamiliar places. Computer literacy is going down so this is only getting worse. Hardware that ships with SteamOS is the best chance to get PC gamers onto Linux. It's already being used by nearly 1% of Steam users and Steam has a lot of users.
> Plus, it's been my experience that drivers for AMD's graphics cards just work better on Linux
That's why Valve went with AMD for the Steam Deck and Machine. But it's also another blocker because 72% of Steam users have an Nvidia GPU.
Many or most of those 95% ...would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out...
> But it's also another blocker because 72% of Steam users have an Nvidia GPU.
My buddy games on Linux and has an nVidia graphics card. It works well enough when you use nVidia's proprietary drivers. Distros like Bazzite install those out of the box. See also this comment [0] posted two hours before yours.
> Many or most of those 95% ...would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out...
I ignored this bit because it wouldn't make an impact. Curiosity and patience is limited for most people so they don't bother exploring options - they just want to game. Having a friend/family/neighbor who can help would be great if there were enough of us, but they still need to take the first step and ask.
Valve is apparently working with Nvidia for proper support with SteamOS. I have my doubts though, I expect AMD will continue to be the best choice, but official support in SteamOS would be significant.
Last time I tried out linux (Earlier this year) I had to give up on it because my system would occasionally freeze to the point I needed to do a hard reset.
I thought it was a hardware issue, but it ended up being a linux amd driver issue. I haven’t had a problem since switching back to windows.
Somewhat. There's still a ~20% ish performance impact for DX12 titles on Nvidia, but on any newer/recent card it basically just brute forces it and ends up being fine unless you are an FPS chaser and have an issue with getting, say, 140 FPS instead of 168 FPS. That'll matter if you play competitive PvP games, but otherwise you probably won't notice (depending on the game)
It depends on your card I think. I can say that with a 3080 Ti and now a 5090 I have no issue playing almost all the games on steam on Fedora 44, event a lot of games not explicitly compatible. I’ve been using Linux only for probably a year now and I don’t see a good reason to go back to Windows for gaming myself.
This is a net good for Linux.
Most of the PC gaming audience is on Windows, so Windows is still the primary target being developed against. Having better Vulkan on Windows means more support for Vulkan in games in the pipeline, which means better Linux support in those games over time, which ultimately benefits Steam and their hardware.
Now it’s our turn to embrace, extend …
The developer writes here, https://www.collabora.com/news-and-blog/news-and-events/crac...
> users are still served only by the proprietary driver [...] An open source Vulkan driver on Windows opens up a number of possibilities: a shared codebase across platforms, easier debugging and experimentation, faster turnaround on fixes, and a path for the community (e.g., game developers) to report problems or contribute improvements that benefit everyone regardless of operating system.
To me, the argument against a proprietary driver seems extremely weak if you're running Windows anyway, but I guess they see it more that if more game devs can run the RADV driver, they can get wider testing (or a simpler story for devs to test at least) and backdoor improvements into the Linux side?
I guess I dont understand the "a shared codebase across platforms, easier debugging and experimentation," comment. Shared RADV codebase? Or shared game engine code, at least the specific parts of the engine that target Vulkan x Radeon (how big is that really?). Similarly I guess "debugging" here is tracking down odd ball RADV bugs where you could then run it in windows to see if its a linux thing or a RADV thing?
> To me, the argument against a proprietary driver seems extremely weak if you're running Windows anyway, but I guess they see it more that if more game devs can run the RADV driver, they can get wider testing (or a simpler story for devs to test at least) and backdoor improvements into the Linux side?
Are you using an AMD driver?
Let me share my experience. One day, you wake up and your GPU driver is gone for no reason. I'm not even joking here—the recent driver update broke the driver for many users. Launch Battlefield 6, and your driver is... gone. A new driver update comes out... Launch Battlefield 6, hard freeze. Improvement. I'm still running an older "blessed" driver version for this reason, and I'm scared to update.
I had an rx 5700xt where one version worked on bf4 but it didn't work on doom eternal. Meanwhile the version had unusable performance when streaming my game to friends. So any time I wanted to play games with friends I had to reinstall an older version. This stayed an issue for months with no communication from AMD.
My current rx6900xt meanwhile has quite a few other stalls and crashes, and doesn't get any of the cool rocm support the 7000series gets.
So my next gpu will be an nvidia. Paying over a thousand euros for a gpu, only to get your support dropped after 2(two!) years of shoddy drivers is just unbearable.
I understood shoddy drivers in the R series, Vega(another lemon i bought) as well, AMD was flat out broke. But by now they surely have some money left over from the ryzen success to make their gpus at least stable.
> Are you using an AMD driver?
Yes, I'm using RADV :)
Game devs testing against the same driver on both platforms would probably surface RADV issues faster than the current Linux-only audience does, and as a linux gamer I couldn't be more happier.
This gives me hope that one day the Steam Controller will have a native Windows driver.
Very cool sponsorship
Valve attempts to fix egregious AI opex by cajoling users to test their thesis at home.
[flagged]
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Most gamers are still on Windows, I expect it to be the case for quite a while, even though Linux support is improving.
Bringing an open source driver to the most popular platform is a way to get more contributors interested, which in turn may help the Linux driver.
First lets get Linux on computer stores so that normies actually care it exists, outside Android, ChromeOS and WebOS powered devices.
Maybe at least wait until we have some actually superior options available and not some crusty 50 year old collections of out-dated ideas...
It won't die as long as it keeps coming preinstalled with new PCs, and included in their price.
Lenovo has already broken rank and Windows is now a paid extra add-on, the default being a popular Linux distro pre-installed unless you wanna pay extra.
The majority of their range is now provided this way.
The reality, Linux is now good enough for students and grandpa alike, plenty of customers who now wouldn’t give a toss to pay the extra price for the Microsoft branded OS.
With Ms Office barely existing anymore the old lock-in is increasingly tenuous.
I often get into YouTube rabbit holes about extinct operating systems and alternative computer architectures. And this one story comes up time and again: Microsoft killing off a competitor with scummy business tactics.
Like basically sending thugs to Japanese computer sellers and threatening to revoke their Windows licenses if they even offered customers an option to pre-install alternative operating systems!!
Say that to the 95% of people using Windows to play PC games.
Many or most of those 95% who are just using Windows for PC games and using a web browser would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out a Linux distro like Bazzite.
I used to boot into Windows regularly to play video games. I haven't booted into Windows in ages. Proton is really good, and the major web browsers work the same on -at minimum- Windows, OSX, and Linux.
Plus, it's been my experience that drivers for AMD's graphics cards just work better on Linux... especially for older games. It helps that the folks writing them aren't working for "AI"-crazy companies that have probably massively slashed the resources they're giving the driver programmers for their consumer-grade cards. (After all, why spend any money on software for video games when you can spend that money on software for "AI" stuff and get a much larger ROI?)
> Many or most of those 95% who are just using Windows for PC games and using a web browser would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out a Linux distro like Bazzite.
This is true until you consider what that exact casual market looks like. Mainstream casual PC gamers are overwhelmingly concentrated in live service multiplayer AAA games with kernel level anticheat. Fortnite, League of Legends, Valorant, Call of Duty, Apex Legends, etc.
So it's kind of a hard spot where yes, 95% of casual windows gamers would in theory be much better off on Linux but the Catch-22 is the games that market is mostly concentrated on is the single category that still does not work on Linux.
It's not like Windows is an OS they love, it's just a mandatory anti-cheat wall, but its a wall Linux can't breach yet.
So, to be clear, and to really drive this point home. Gaming on Linux is absolutely viable and practical it's just the efforts are sunken by bad developers who refuse to enable compatibility or figure out a better solution.
"games that market is mostly concentrated on is the single category that still does not work on Linux."
All of the games you described have and will work on Linux perfectly fine under proton, it is the developers CHOICE for these games not to work.
> it is the developers CHOICE for these games not to work.
Can you blame them if the choices they have are a) support Linux but with weak anti-cheat, or b) exclude ~3% of PC gamers?
> "games that market is mostly concentrated on is the single category that still does not work on Linux."
Yeah. That single category is "games that the devs have done the extra work needed to make them not run in Proton". There's no consistent game genre, age, or intended audience... it's just whether or not the dev decided that running on the Steam Deck, SteamOS, and the various Linux distros was something that they were actively going to block. [0]
[0] An illustrative case is Apex Legends. It waffled back and forth between "permitted to run under Proton" and "not permitted", and eventually landed in the "not permitted" bucket. And no, "'competitive' shooters" is not the category that this fits in because shooters like Hunt: Showdown and Counterstrike work just fine with Proton.
The service where Counter-Strike actually gets played competitively, FaceIT, does not work on Linux.
The problem is most people "who are just using Windows for PC games and using a web browser" are not a good fit for Linux. They don't install their OS themselves so cannot install a Linux distro. They don't do their own regular maintenance so forced updates are necessary. They expect software like Office to be available - not alternatives that work a bit differently and have buttons in unfamiliar places. Computer literacy is going down so this is only getting worse. Hardware that ships with SteamOS is the best chance to get PC gamers onto Linux. It's already being used by nearly 1% of Steam users and Steam has a lot of users.
> Plus, it's been my experience that drivers for AMD's graphics cards just work better on Linux
That's why Valve went with AMD for the Steam Deck and Machine. But it's also another blocker because 72% of Steam users have an Nvidia GPU.
> The problem is most people...
From the first sentence in my reply:
> But it's also another blocker because 72% of Steam users have an Nvidia GPU.My buddy games on Linux and has an nVidia graphics card. It works well enough when you use nVidia's proprietary drivers. Distros like Bazzite install those out of the box. See also this comment [0] posted two hours before yours.
[0] <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49099323>
> Many or most of those 95% ...would be well served by either trying out or having a tech-savvy neighbor help them try out...
I ignored this bit because it wouldn't make an impact. Curiosity and patience is limited for most people so they don't bother exploring options - they just want to game. Having a friend/family/neighbor who can help would be great if there were enough of us, but they still need to take the first step and ask.
Valve is apparently working with Nvidia for proper support with SteamOS. I have my doubts though, I expect AMD will continue to be the best choice, but official support in SteamOS would be significant.
Last time I tried out linux (Earlier this year) I had to give up on it because my system would occasionally freeze to the point I needed to do a hard reset.
I thought it was a hardware issue, but it ended up being a linux amd driver issue. I haven’t had a problem since switching back to windows.
From what I can tell, gaming with an nvidia card on Linux is still rough. Is that incorrect?
Somewhat. There's still a ~20% ish performance impact for DX12 titles on Nvidia, but on any newer/recent card it basically just brute forces it and ends up being fine unless you are an FPS chaser and have an issue with getting, say, 140 FPS instead of 168 FPS. That'll matter if you play competitive PvP games, but otherwise you probably won't notice (depending on the game)
It depends on your card I think. I can say that with a 3080 Ti and now a 5090 I have no issue playing almost all the games on steam on Fedora 44, event a lot of games not explicitly compatible. I’ve been using Linux only for probably a year now and I don’t see a good reason to go back to Windows for gaming myself.
Well millions of people are still smoking cigarettes doesn't mean that shit is good