The main complaint and law that HateAid, the organization that lodged the complaint, is using, is that recording devices have to be visible as such. Glasses are not a known and widely accepted video/photo device and therefore affected by that law.
Effectively, their complaint is that a specific model looks too much like normal sunglasses that other people are unable to distinguish them as such.
I imagine Meta and folks wearing these glasses would object to webcam like behavior where it tells you with a LED that it's consuming the video feed. Could be same for taking a picture.
These glasses have a LED. I haven't seen it for real, but I've heard it's not discernible at daylight.
Even so, it might still run afoul of German law. The German radio directive specifically forbids recording devices made to blend in and be surreptitious. The LED would have to be extremely obvious and hard to tamper with.
(It's not even a privacy directive; you're just not allowed to sell devices like that. Baby monitors have run afoul it.)
Blue is "online offers actioned/removed", orange is "legal proceedings initiated against vendors & sellers". That's more than 7 legal actions per day in 2024.
You’re also not allowed to record anyone without their explicit consent if there is an expectation of privacy, even in public spaces. That makes the device use very likely to be illegal (assuming you use it to record videos in public spaces and it’s sensitive enough to record your surroundings)
That's not an argument in this (legal) case since the regulation applies at the time the device is sold.
(It just means the applicable law is another one, i.e. the one against recording in secret, which applies regardless of what the recording device looks like.)
[Ed.: it could still be considered a design/manufacturing defect, I guess. It certainly would fail if it were intentionally made such that the LED is trivially disabled. The courts may have to decide if this is in the grey zone.]
The relevant legal provision is from §8 TDDDG [1]:
"(1) It is prohibited to possess, manufacture, make available on the market, import, or otherwise bring within the territory to which this Act applies, telecommunications equipment that, by its appearance, purports to be another object or is disguised as an object of everyday use and that, because of these circumstances or because of the way it functions, is particularly suited and intended to intercept, without that person’s knowledge, the non-publicly spoken words of another person or to record images of another person without that person’s knowledge."
IANAL, but this sounds like it's directly applicable.
Violations can be punished with up to two years in prison or a fine.
Glasses that record video have been around for decades, they just weren't as pervasive. It sounds like this is a general law against disguised surveillance cameras, which I'm sure has historically included camera glasses, so it seems like kind of a slam dunk unless Meta can somehow argue that smart glasses have become common enough to be readily recognized as a recording device.
Ah, I was waiting for this to happen! That will be interesting to follow. From my non-lawyer read of German laws that should be a n easy win for the advocacy group, but I’m interested to see Meta’s arguments
I think they will argue that the led gives an indication that it's recording and therefore not "hidden in everyday object". The issue is more about people removing the LED, I guess they will toughen the law about this in the future.
"HateAid said its complaint was based on a federal digital data protection law that prohibits the sale of communication devices designed to film people without them noticing."
I think the light makes it pretty clear it's recording? There will always be devices made to suppress this... I'm not sure I want to go down the path of mandating an audible camera click sound like they have for smartphones in Japan
There's news articles already about women realising they were recorded without their consent and are now on TikTok or something. Just waiting for the first lawsuit against Meta about that, hopefully it kills the idea.
I like smart glasses as they are useful for quickly capturing life's moments (friends/family/experiences) and learning more about the world around you. When i did some solo traveling in Berlin i learned a lot about things I was seeing thru my glasses.
I think Apple if and when releases their smart glasses they could/should add a privacy feature. The feature would anonymize and or randomize all strangers faces in the pics and vids you take who are not in your network (Apple already knows many faces in your network now).
Though Apple may never release such glasses but Google via Samsung will purportedly be releasing theirs this fall.
> Though Apple may never release such glasses but Google via Samsung will purportedly be releasing theirs this fall.
The old "let's break the law as much and as blatantly as possible, our lawyers will delay any punishment until so many people has the product that is not politically viable to stop it".
Let's start to put into prison CEOs that have broken the law, I do not care if millions use Facebook. It facilitated a genocide that is a crime against humanity. Let's tech them a lesson so they stop ignoring the law. And it should be an exemplary prison sentence, not just a couple of years that they spend at home.
The guy who was honestly providing his experience using smart glasses with his family and how they could be improved to be more privacy-conscious.
You then went on a rant about how CEOs should be jailed because their products facilitated a genocide? How does this have to do with the parent? It's not even clear that these smart glasses are illegal (I suppose we'll see the results of the criminal complaint)?
What would be best for a video equivalent of that? I can imagine an old school "film rolling" sound playing for as long as it's recording, or some tape hiss or something.
a video equivalent of the mandatory shutter sound, I mean. You might overlook an LED and it can be covered, but a constant loud noise is unmistakeable hopefully.
That would be very annoying and mess with recording sound. And yes, a LED could be covered, but then this would be a crime in areas where covert recording is not allowed (e.g. public spaces).
This sentence doesn’t make sense so I may be reading it wrong. But in sunlight the red LED is totally invisible. It’s too bad because they’re genuinely a good idea for me but I feel like a creep for even considering a pair.
Look at what how GDPR is interpreted in regards to CCTVs and bodycams. You generally do need to give proper Article 13 notice in regards to those recordings. In particular EDPB Guidelines on video recording (3/2019) state that:
> The first layer concerns the primary way in which the controller first engages with the data subject. At this stage, controllers may use a warning sign showing the relevant information. The displayed information may be provided in combination with an icon in order to give, in an easily visible, intelligible and clearly readable manner, a meaningful overview of the intended processing (Article 12 (7) GDPR). The format of the information should be adjusted to the individual location (WP89 par. 22).
> The information should be positioned in such a way that the data subject can easily recognize the circumstances of the surveillance before entering the monitored area (approximately at eye level). It is not necessary to reveal the position of the camera as long as there is no doubt as to which areas are subject to monitoring and the context of surveillance is clarified unambiguously
> The first layer information (warning sign) should generally convey the most important information, e.g. the details of the purposes of processing, the identity of controller and the existence of the rights of the data subject, together with information on the greatest impacts of the processing
While recording by these might not always implicate GDPR directly (as it might be exempted under household exemption or the broader allowances given for journalistic purposes), it does give good idea on how unambiguous it should be.
> While recording by these might not always implicate GDPR directly (as it might be exempted under household exemption or the broader allowances given for journalistic purposes)
I'd guess that the glasses first transfer the recordings to Meta who process and store them abroad for various commercial purposes. That way of working can never fall under the household or journalistic exemptions. And per GDPR the owner of the glasses is on the hook for whatever Meta is doing, because the owner is (by GDPR) contracting Meta to do data processing for him/her.
I don't think the owner is on the hook if they simply use the service. The individual wasn't the one who truly decided the essential means and purposes beyond personal use, Meta is the one who did that and is thus the controller for that processing.
And I believe in case of European users the contract is between Meta Ireland and user, Meta Ireland is the one who would be the one doing the exporting in that case.
Now if user actually did publish it on Meta's service for broader consumption then they might become controller for that & if initial purpose was that then the initial recording is unlikely to be exempted under household exemption.
> The individual wasn't the one who truly decided the essential means and purposes beyond personal use
The user is supposed to have read Meta's terms and conditions and agreed to them. Of course nobody does that, but that doesn't absolve of the responsibility, it rather means that the user who uploads stuff to Meta does things in full knowledge and willingly or carelessly. It just might make Meta liable as well, because naturally their terms were sneaky, hidden, unclear and probably illegal.
And I'd guess that Meta Ireland has been sued often enough that they have some export clause deep in their conditions as well, which the user should also have read and agreed to.
The full analysis of this would need to take in account:
* Who actually determines the essential means and purposes for each processing purpose (and is truly doing it). Fashion ID case is quite relevant here.
* If terms which grant Meta these rights and user a lot of obligations would fall under unfair terms or unfair commercial practices directives. If they do then those aspects of the terms are invalid. These could, for example, affect requirement that the user must get consent from data subject for Meta's processing operations.
There have been various cases where individuals have been determined to be separate controllers. For example there have been many cases where doctors/nurses/police looked into the employer's databases without having professional need and were determined to be separate controllers and were fined under GDPR.
When you film with a camera you are holding a camera and you're pointing it at people. When you film with your glasses, nothing of such happens. And the ridiculous defense "it has a light" is just that, ridiculous: you can't see a light if you're not looking directly at it and have convenient surrounding lighting.
I'd say it's easier to covertly film someone with a smartphone than with glasses that have a lightup LED. With the smartphone you can just angle it to look as if you're casually holding it or using it normally.
That would violate a different law, though, § 201 StGB (German penalty code) forbids recording if there is a reasonable assumption of privacy (which you can have even in public).
This complaint is about a different law (§ 8 TDDDG), that explicitly forbids selling and owning devices that are designed as every-day objects and that can record sound and/or video and that.
Are we arguing about what the creepiest way is to film people on the streets? Who would want that in the first place?? I don't need encouraging creeps... I didn't hear yet "filming the ICE" as a argument - probably the only one I could understand, but there the problem is not the glasses anyway (nor the solution).
It's specifically about bug-like devices which transmit the recording. A typical consumer camera does not provide simultaneous uploading, I think. A device that is just recording for storage is not regulated this way.
The law has been applied to baby monitors disguised as toys, which makes some sense to me. Smart watches and phones where the microphone can be controlled remotely, with that capability being marketed specifically for monitoring purposes, have also been targeted.
The problem is that even when they're not recording they're still beaming data back to Meta. Which is why I'll continue being a PITA to anyone wearing them where I'm in their field of view. I made a choice long ago that I wanted nothing to do with their dumbfuck products, but now they've decided I get no choice and that's not fucking on.
Wonder how long until something like this comes to the United States? Doubt it'll happen federally but could see some states like California setting up similar cases
I suppose these devices might be a helping hand to folks who are visually impaired.
As if it's not enough to run a global surveillance platform, they now have released the world a army of live, lobotomised surveillance drones. My take is that the only legislation we need is this: give legal immunity to the people who want to grab the glasses off the smug faces of the said drones, and smash it into pieces.
They lost badly to X a few years back, only to show incredible maturity and grace by quitting the platform afterward .. would love to see how they do against Meta
The main complaint and law that HateAid, the organization that lodged the complaint, is using, is that recording devices have to be visible as such. Glasses are not a known and widely accepted video/photo device and therefore affected by that law.
Effectively, their complaint is that a specific model looks too much like normal sunglasses that other people are unable to distinguish them as such.
Article with a bit more detail:
https://www.heise.de/en/news/AI-glasses-Criminal-charges-aga...
I imagine Meta and folks wearing these glasses would object to webcam like behavior where it tells you with a LED that it's consuming the video feed. Could be same for taking a picture.
But then probably fewer people would buy them.
These glasses have a LED. I haven't seen it for real, but I've heard it's not discernible at daylight.
Even so, it might still run afoul of German law. The German radio directive specifically forbids recording devices made to blend in and be surreptitious. The LED would have to be extremely obvious and hard to tamper with.
(It's not even a privacy directive; you're just not allowed to sell devices like that. Baby monitors have run afoul it.)
[German] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Fachthemen/Datenportal/V...
Blue is "online offers actioned/removed", orange is "legal proceedings initiated against vendors & sellers". That's more than 7 legal actions per day in 2024.
You’re also not allowed to record anyone without their explicit consent if there is an expectation of privacy, even in public spaces. That makes the device use very likely to be illegal (assuming you use it to record videos in public spaces and it’s sensitive enough to record your surroundings)
The LEDs can be disabled with a hardware mod.
https://thenewthings.com/p/i-paid-someone-to-hack-my-meta-gl...
That's not an argument in this (legal) case since the regulation applies at the time the device is sold.
(It just means the applicable law is another one, i.e. the one against recording in secret, which applies regardless of what the recording device looks like.)
[Ed.: it could still be considered a design/manufacturing defect, I guess. It certainly would fail if it were intentionally made such that the LED is trivially disabled. The courts may have to decide if this is in the grey zone.]
Heads should be rolling at Ray-Ban, they've permanently tarnished an iconic American brand by aligning themselves with big tech.
Ray Ban has been an Italian brand for decades. They got bought by Luxottica in 1999.
That doesn't change the fact that its an iconic American brand, directly associated with American culture and design.
The relevant legal provision is from §8 TDDDG [1]:
"(1) It is prohibited to possess, manufacture, make available on the market, import, or otherwise bring within the territory to which this Act applies, telecommunications equipment that, by its appearance, purports to be another object or is disguised as an object of everyday use and that, because of these circumstances or because of the way it functions, is particularly suited and intended to intercept, without that person’s knowledge, the non-publicly spoken words of another person or to record images of another person without that person’s knowledge."
IANAL, but this sounds like it's directly applicable.
Violations can be punished with up to two years in prison or a fine.
[1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ttdsg/__8.html
Glasses that record video have been around for decades, they just weren't as pervasive. It sounds like this is a general law against disguised surveillance cameras, which I'm sure has historically included camera glasses, so it seems like kind of a slam dunk unless Meta can somehow argue that smart glasses have become common enough to be readily recognized as a recording device.
Ah, I was waiting for this to happen! That will be interesting to follow. From my non-lawyer read of German laws that should be a n easy win for the advocacy group, but I’m interested to see Meta’s arguments
I think they will argue that the led gives an indication that it's recording and therefore not "hidden in everyday object". The issue is more about people removing the LED, I guess they will toughen the law about this in the future.
"HateAid said its complaint was based on a federal digital data protection law that prohibits the sale of communication devices designed to film people without them noticing."
I think the light makes it pretty clear it's recording? There will always be devices made to suppress this... I'm not sure I want to go down the path of mandating an audible camera click sound like they have for smartphones in Japan
There's news articles already about women realising they were recorded without their consent and are now on TikTok or something. Just waiting for the first lawsuit against Meta about that, hopefully it kills the idea.
I like smart glasses as they are useful for quickly capturing life's moments (friends/family/experiences) and learning more about the world around you. When i did some solo traveling in Berlin i learned a lot about things I was seeing thru my glasses.
I think Apple if and when releases their smart glasses they could/should add a privacy feature. The feature would anonymize and or randomize all strangers faces in the pics and vids you take who are not in your network (Apple already knows many faces in your network now).
Though Apple may never release such glasses but Google via Samsung will purportedly be releasing theirs this fall.
> Though Apple may never release such glasses but Google via Samsung will purportedly be releasing theirs this fall.
The old "let's break the law as much and as blatantly as possible, our lawyers will delay any punishment until so many people has the product that is not politically viable to stop it".
Let's start to put into prison CEOs that have broken the law, I do not care if millions use Facebook. It facilitated a genocide that is a crime against humanity. Let's tech them a lesson so they stop ignoring the law. And it should be an exemplary prison sentence, not just a couple of years that they spend at home.
The guy who was honestly providing his experience using smart glasses with his family and how they could be improved to be more privacy-conscious.
You then went on a rant about how CEOs should be jailed because their products facilitated a genocide? How does this have to do with the parent? It's not even clear that these smart glasses are illegal (I suppose we'll see the results of the criminal complaint)?
I hope you are okay man...
What would be best for a video equivalent of that? I can imagine an old school "film rolling" sound playing for as long as it's recording, or some tape hiss or something.
A visible red LED like it used to be standard already to indicate something is recording?
Shouldn't blind people be accommodated too?
a video equivalent of the mandatory shutter sound, I mean. You might overlook an LED and it can be covered, but a constant loud noise is unmistakeable hopefully.
That would be very annoying and mess with recording sound. And yes, a LED could be covered, but then this would be a crime in areas where covert recording is not allowed (e.g. public spaces).
This sentence doesn’t make sense so I may be reading it wrong. But in sunlight the red LED is totally invisible. It’s too bad because they’re genuinely a good idea for me but I feel like a creep for even considering a pair.
It is not invisible in sunlight, if it is bright enough. Nowdays one can make that adaptive to surrounding light.
Look at what how GDPR is interpreted in regards to CCTVs and bodycams. You generally do need to give proper Article 13 notice in regards to those recordings. In particular EDPB Guidelines on video recording (3/2019) state that:
> The first layer concerns the primary way in which the controller first engages with the data subject. At this stage, controllers may use a warning sign showing the relevant information. The displayed information may be provided in combination with an icon in order to give, in an easily visible, intelligible and clearly readable manner, a meaningful overview of the intended processing (Article 12 (7) GDPR). The format of the information should be adjusted to the individual location (WP89 par. 22).
> The information should be positioned in such a way that the data subject can easily recognize the circumstances of the surveillance before entering the monitored area (approximately at eye level). It is not necessary to reveal the position of the camera as long as there is no doubt as to which areas are subject to monitoring and the context of surveillance is clarified unambiguously
> The first layer information (warning sign) should generally convey the most important information, e.g. the details of the purposes of processing, the identity of controller and the existence of the rights of the data subject, together with information on the greatest impacts of the processing
While recording by these might not always implicate GDPR directly (as it might be exempted under household exemption or the broader allowances given for journalistic purposes), it does give good idea on how unambiguous it should be.
> While recording by these might not always implicate GDPR directly (as it might be exempted under household exemption or the broader allowances given for journalistic purposes)
I'd guess that the glasses first transfer the recordings to Meta who process and store them abroad for various commercial purposes. That way of working can never fall under the household or journalistic exemptions. And per GDPR the owner of the glasses is on the hook for whatever Meta is doing, because the owner is (by GDPR) contracting Meta to do data processing for him/her.
I don't think the owner is on the hook if they simply use the service. The individual wasn't the one who truly decided the essential means and purposes beyond personal use, Meta is the one who did that and is thus the controller for that processing.
And I believe in case of European users the contract is between Meta Ireland and user, Meta Ireland is the one who would be the one doing the exporting in that case.
Now if user actually did publish it on Meta's service for broader consumption then they might become controller for that & if initial purpose was that then the initial recording is unlikely to be exempted under household exemption.
> The individual wasn't the one who truly decided the essential means and purposes beyond personal use
The user is supposed to have read Meta's terms and conditions and agreed to them. Of course nobody does that, but that doesn't absolve of the responsibility, it rather means that the user who uploads stuff to Meta does things in full knowledge and willingly or carelessly. It just might make Meta liable as well, because naturally their terms were sneaky, hidden, unclear and probably illegal.
And I'd guess that Meta Ireland has been sued often enough that they have some export clause deep in their conditions as well, which the user should also have read and agreed to.
The full analysis of this would need to take in account:
* Who actually determines the essential means and purposes for each processing purpose (and is truly doing it). Fashion ID case is quite relevant here.
* If terms which grant Meta these rights and user a lot of obligations would fall under unfair terms or unfair commercial practices directives. If they do then those aspects of the terms are invalid. These could, for example, affect requirement that the user must get consent from data subject for Meta's processing operations.
The GDPR does not apply to private citizens.
As per Article 4:
> ‘controller’ means the natural or legal person
There have been various cases where individuals have been determined to be separate controllers. For example there have been many cases where doctors/nurses/police looked into the employer's databases without having professional need and were determined to be separate controllers and were fined under GDPR.
When you film with a camera you are holding a camera and you're pointing it at people. When you film with your glasses, nothing of such happens. And the ridiculous defense "it has a light" is just that, ridiculous: you can't see a light if you're not looking directly at it and have convenient surrounding lighting.
I'd say it's easier to covertly film someone with a smartphone than with glasses that have a lightup LED. With the smartphone you can just angle it to look as if you're casually holding it or using it normally.
That would violate a different law, though, § 201 StGB (German penalty code) forbids recording if there is a reasonable assumption of privacy (which you can have even in public).
This complaint is about a different law (§ 8 TDDDG), that explicitly forbids selling and owning devices that are designed as every-day objects and that can record sound and/or video and that.
> angle it to look as if you're casually holding it or using it normally.
So you film the ground?
Wide angle camera
That’s legal?
In places where covert recording is legal.
Pretty easy to block the led too, though.
Are we arguing about what the creepiest way is to film people on the streets? Who would want that in the first place?? I don't need encouraging creeps... I didn't hear yet "filming the ICE" as a argument - probably the only one I could understand, but there the problem is not the glasses anyway (nor the solution).
This is the relevant law: https://www.buzer.de/8_TDDDG.htm (It used to be §90 TKG.)
It's specifically about bug-like devices which transmit the recording. A typical consumer camera does not provide simultaneous uploading, I think. A device that is just recording for storage is not regulated this way.
The law has been applied to baby monitors disguised as toys, which makes some sense to me. Smart watches and phones where the microphone can be controlled remotely, with that capability being marketed specifically for monitoring purposes, have also been targeted.
> A typical consumer camera does not provide simultaneous uploading
I think most cameras these days include the ability to live stream?
The problem is that even when they're not recording they're still beaming data back to Meta. Which is why I'll continue being a PITA to anyone wearing them where I'm in their field of view. I made a choice long ago that I wanted nothing to do with their dumbfuck products, but now they've decided I get no choice and that's not fucking on.
If they're doing any analysis they must be recording in some sense, right? So logically the indicator needs to be active the whole time.
My understanding is that it only comes on when they're recording.
Wonder how long until something like this comes to the United States? Doubt it'll happen federally but could see some states like California setting up similar cases
Zuckerburg suckt Trumps dick.
Trump doesn't care.
I don't think this will be banned in the USA
I suppose these devices might be a helping hand to folks who are visually impaired.
As if it's not enough to run a global surveillance platform, they now have released the world a army of live, lobotomised surveillance drones. My take is that the only legislation we need is this: give legal immunity to the people who want to grab the glasses off the smug faces of the said drones, and smash it into pieces.
They lost badly to X a few years back, only to show incredible maturity and grace by quitting the platform afterward .. would love to see how they do against Meta
[flagged]
I don't see how that's related to the meta glasses case here? Are people going to dissent by wearing them...?
Can you expand on what you mean?