I swear that we're doing it wrong. These regulations based on age restriction are lazy at best.
The harmful aspects of social media are their algorithms and their dopamine-exploitative design patterns.
Regulate and penalise this! Put some effort in actually targeting the source of the problem affecting children and adults alike.
Don't put the onus on users having to share very sensitive (and at risk of leaking!) information in order to prove they're not kids. Not to mention how easy it is to bypass with a VPN.
> The European Commission is set to unveil an EU Kids Act proposal restricting minors' access to platforms such as Instagram, TikTok and YouTube
YouTube is the video museum and is crucial for formation. Badly maintained, but it is where we find cultural video material and its access in civilized societies can only be granted.
> From three to 13, children can access child-friendly services under adult supervision
At a fraction of that age, some of us had been reading masterpieces without any supervision.
The article does not seem to tackle the elephant in the room: how to ensure that total, ___total___ anonimity is granted to users. (Recent news were about needing a google or apple account and certified device in europe to access the sites. Of course, we do not sign contracts with google or apple.)
Again, the spread information remains about forbidding access to resources that instead must be maximixed in use (the video museum); about feeding kids what could be trash for direly deficient minds instead of the real intellectual material we absorbed even when small children; the biggest questions about Principles (Dignity, the Decency of society - ref. anonimity) remain unclarified when they are most important.
YouTube contains lessons from the most prestigious universities; divulgational material from "all" countries and times; intellectual commentaries about the past hours from most prestigious academicians; video documents of paramount importance.
All of this updated daily.
I receive daily RSS from hundreds of channels and I know very well what we can find in it.
That it is surely of course also full of trash is not an argument - also bookstores and libraries will be.
People in formation and in cultivation are mandated attendance - the opposite of avoiding it.
--
Edit: when you want to have a taste of what YT contains, check of course: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=youtube.com - if you are here... What we find HN worth is abundant, and just a tiny subset of what has worth on YT (we do not consider HN a primarily video submissions collector).
Social media has influenced at least one Presidential Election and the Brexit Campaign to the point where educated adults were manipulated into voting against their own interests.
If educated adults in possession of their full critical faculties can be hoodwinked to this extent, then surely it behooves us as a society to put in some consensus based guardrails to protect our most vulnerable.
This is not an attempt to censor or otherwise diminish anyone's intellectual or cultural journey, but simply an acknowledgement of the tragedy of the (media) commons. It's the equivalent of going to see the Mona Lisa, and being forced to dodge some weirdo running around the Louvre in a knock-off Spiderman costume, screaming about men in women's sports.
Same as "educated adults went to the library, picked the loudest books and were manipulated". They must have not been educated well enough then.
> guardrails to protect our most vulnerable
Whatever you do, you have to do it properly. Of course guardrails that are defeatist and that impact on fundamental rights are unacceptable.
> It's the equivalent of going to see the Mona Lisa
Not really: visit the room where the Mona Lisa is and avoid the unwanted rooms. It is not sensible to impede access to the Mona Lisa because of the "knockoff spiderman" exhibits and performers.
> Social media has influenced
YouTube is the place where the Intellectuals debating critical matters are supposed to be found.
We have laws to combat the disinformation, its just we just stopped enforcing it because it was the political's best interests. Like we actually have fined (X for 120M).
So solution is gate it behind age? It doesnt fix disinformation problem, i refuse to belive that they cant just run transcription via AI and spot disinformation to delete. If EU thinks AI is good enough to invade our privacy via chat control. Why not use this to combat disinformation? or even easier just find repeating messages and block that (since lots campaigns work like this)
Theres so many solutions before having to resort age gate, the worst is. Putting it behind gate doesnt protect from people who can vote, so what they are even trying fix there?
People also seem forget, on household, we share devices with children. So user can share +18 flag easy as parents are lending tablet for them play games. Im referring the OS level age verification system which is happening around US.
> Social media has influenced at least one Presidential Election and the Brexit Campaign to the point where educated adults were manipulated into voting against their own interests.
The people voted wrong so we must censor or put a gate in front of social media. Next year, we'll simply retire voting entirely because we just can't trust people to make the right choice. This is democracy TM.
> If educated adults in possession of their full critical faculties can be hoodwinked to this extent
Of course if I asked you who you voted for or why you would probably say that you made the right choice based on solid evidence but the people who did not vote like you, no way, they were just hoodwinked or tricked. Condescending much?
> This is not an attempt to censor or otherwise diminish anyone's intellectual or cultural journey
Of course it is, you are simply justifying the censorship because it suits your purpose at this present time.
Protecting kids, stopping terrorism and keeping the population safe are always the same reasons given by governments on this planet to reduce the civil liberties of the population.
Today it's selfies and government ID to view social media and if you have something against that then maybe you are a terrorist or a child molester, tomorrow we''ll ask for the full access to your emails, text messages, browser history because we just can't trust that you are not either doing or planning something nefarious.
Slippery slope all the way but no worries, its for the kids.
South Korean model on the internet (internet ssn for login) might be useful particularly accrediting access to llms but stake holders and the general public are screaming for something or anything else in regards to social media. Personally I think a 'drivers license' for llm access or the greater internet might work well.
As disturbing as it is to realize the perception of anonymity is a fundamental necessity in most business models, scientists, law enforcement, sexually creepy people with too much power and money, and propagandists we all must realize civilization is at stake with regards to the minds of our children and dopamine-exploitative imprinting patterns.
Those imprinting processes need not be so addictive and must be regulated. Woe is to the companies business models that will impact but the future is at stake here. No child has been adequately protected from these processes in my lifetime.
There is no civilization when basic values are missing. Either people are dignified or beasts, and those compromises are only for beasts. The dignified will not live tracked, especially if potentially by the beasts: that remains totally strict. Outside that, you only have a veneer of civilization.
> the future is at stake here
The present and the future are at stake when somebody thinks that access to culture must be forbidden to those in formative years.
> child has been adequately protected from these processes in my lifetime
Children who have been raised properly are protected from those processes. Children who have been raised properly do not consume trash, and will recognize and seek good mental food - I witness that. People who have been raised properly avoid addictive behaviour.
I have yet to see any evidence that 'children raised properly' would be immune from these practices.
It's like saying children from good households never get addicted to drugs. Wrong.
What's also wrong is that these are not just drugs they're personally identifiable targed drugs specifically designed for children that log all interaction.
We can strive to have digital interactions without the unwanted addiction.
I feel society is going in a direction where there is no longer any individual responsibility. Instead everything is delegated to the state. Can't limit your kids screen time? Not your fault, it is the evil algorithm and it is up to your government to discipline your children. Being a parent will be reduced to providing your gametes.
> In particular, the bill bans design features such as infinite scrolling, artificial notifications and certain reward mechanisms.
Honestly I think it's good that there are more guide rails and safeguards implemented for kids.
As with any rules and regulations there will be loop holes and big corporations will still try to get away with as much as they can. But blocking the most harmful mechanisms and content while still keeping access open seems very reasonable.
> tech companies would be required to make their digital services safe by design
Sometimes I think even adults would benefit from rules blocking addictive features and mechanisms.
> [infinite scrolling, artificial notifications and certain reward mechanisms]
Of course the removal of bad algorithms is a good thing, but that is not the problem with the proposed legislation and approach.
> still keeping access open
What tells you that access will remain open? How will they implement access control? This is the big question, and the very fact that they are not replying to that clearly defines their faults.
> Sometimes I think even adults
They are again unrecognized minors of unduly age. Societies should minimize the phenomenon. Instead, they clumsily encourage it. To have adults in society you need to create and adult oriented society. To obtain adults in society you have to create the foundation in proper education.
And it will only worsen with impeded access to material for cultivation. The failures in education are of paramount importance and the proper orientation from people capable of saying "no access to culture, for your protection" is dubious as an understatement.
As someone that has had that experience when Timex 2068 was considered modern, and all that Nintendo did were Game&Watch handhelds, I am fine with it, there are other activities to keep one busy.
Really exhausting this tyranny of the commission elected by no one that is totally morally corrupt and the power tool of a few lobbies to advance their agenda like censoring and so.
It is because of them that the trust in Europe is at an all time low and that nationalist political movements are gaining so much traction in European countries.
They don't respect the citizen will but then pretend to not understand when far right is winning election all over Europe.
I swear that we're doing it wrong. These regulations based on age restriction are lazy at best.
The harmful aspects of social media are their algorithms and their dopamine-exploitative design patterns.
Regulate and penalise this! Put some effort in actually targeting the source of the problem affecting children and adults alike.
Don't put the onus on users having to share very sensitive (and at risk of leaking!) information in order to prove they're not kids. Not to mention how easy it is to bypass with a VPN.
> The European Commission is set to unveil an EU Kids Act proposal restricting minors' access to platforms such as Instagram, TikTok and YouTube
YouTube is the video museum and is crucial for formation. Badly maintained, but it is where we find cultural video material and its access in civilized societies can only be granted.
> From three to 13, children can access child-friendly services under adult supervision
At a fraction of that age, some of us had been reading masterpieces without any supervision.
The article does not seem to tackle the elephant in the room: how to ensure that total, ___total___ anonimity is granted to users. (Recent news were about needing a google or apple account and certified device in europe to access the sites. Of course, we do not sign contracts with google or apple.)
Again, the spread information remains about forbidding access to resources that instead must be maximixed in use (the video museum); about feeding kids what could be trash for direly deficient minds instead of the real intellectual material we absorbed even when small children; the biggest questions about Principles (Dignity, the Decency of society - ref. anonimity) remain unclarified when they are most important.
That infra-humanity must be wiped off history.
>> YouTube is the video museum
I think you didn’t visit YouTube recently. It’s still a short junk video site like TikTok and Instagram.
You are completely out or reality.
YouTube contains lessons from the most prestigious universities; divulgational material from "all" countries and times; intellectual commentaries about the past hours from most prestigious academicians; video documents of paramount importance.
All of this updated daily.
I receive daily RSS from hundreds of channels and I know very well what we can find in it.
That it is surely of course also full of trash is not an argument - also bookstores and libraries will be.
People in formation and in cultivation are mandated attendance - the opposite of avoiding it.
--
Edit: when you want to have a taste of what YT contains, check of course: https://news.ycombinator.com/from?site=youtube.com - if you are here... What we find HN worth is abundant, and just a tiny subset of what has worth on YT (we do not consider HN a primarily video submissions collector).
Social media has influenced at least one Presidential Election and the Brexit Campaign to the point where educated adults were manipulated into voting against their own interests.
If educated adults in possession of their full critical faculties can be hoodwinked to this extent, then surely it behooves us as a society to put in some consensus based guardrails to protect our most vulnerable.
This is not an attempt to censor or otherwise diminish anyone's intellectual or cultural journey, but simply an acknowledgement of the tragedy of the (media) commons. It's the equivalent of going to see the Mona Lisa, and being forced to dodge some weirdo running around the Louvre in a knock-off Spiderman costume, screaming about men in women's sports.
> educated adults were manipulated
Same as "educated adults went to the library, picked the loudest books and were manipulated". They must have not been educated well enough then.
> guardrails to protect our most vulnerable
Whatever you do, you have to do it properly. Of course guardrails that are defeatist and that impact on fundamental rights are unacceptable.
> It's the equivalent of going to see the Mona Lisa
Not really: visit the room where the Mona Lisa is and avoid the unwanted rooms. It is not sensible to impede access to the Mona Lisa because of the "knockoff spiderman" exhibits and performers.
> Social media has influenced
YouTube is the place where the Intellectuals debating critical matters are supposed to be found.
We have laws to combat the disinformation, its just we just stopped enforcing it because it was the political's best interests. Like we actually have fined (X for 120M).
So solution is gate it behind age? It doesnt fix disinformation problem, i refuse to belive that they cant just run transcription via AI and spot disinformation to delete. If EU thinks AI is good enough to invade our privacy via chat control. Why not use this to combat disinformation? or even easier just find repeating messages and block that (since lots campaigns work like this)
Theres so many solutions before having to resort age gate, the worst is. Putting it behind gate doesnt protect from people who can vote, so what they are even trying fix there?
People also seem forget, on household, we share devices with children. So user can share +18 flag easy as parents are lending tablet for them play games. Im referring the OS level age verification system which is happening around US.
> Social media has influenced at least one Presidential Election and the Brexit Campaign to the point where educated adults were manipulated into voting against their own interests.
The people voted wrong so we must censor or put a gate in front of social media. Next year, we'll simply retire voting entirely because we just can't trust people to make the right choice. This is democracy TM.
> If educated adults in possession of their full critical faculties can be hoodwinked to this extent
Of course if I asked you who you voted for or why you would probably say that you made the right choice based on solid evidence but the people who did not vote like you, no way, they were just hoodwinked or tricked. Condescending much?
> This is not an attempt to censor or otherwise diminish anyone's intellectual or cultural journey
Of course it is, you are simply justifying the censorship because it suits your purpose at this present time.
Protecting kids, stopping terrorism and keeping the population safe are always the same reasons given by governments on this planet to reduce the civil liberties of the population.
Today it's selfies and government ID to view social media and if you have something against that then maybe you are a terrorist or a child molester, tomorrow we''ll ask for the full access to your emails, text messages, browser history because we just can't trust that you are not either doing or planning something nefarious.
Slippery slope all the way but no worries, its for the kids.
South Korean model on the internet (internet ssn for login) might be useful particularly accrediting access to llms but stake holders and the general public are screaming for something or anything else in regards to social media. Personally I think a 'drivers license' for llm access or the greater internet might work well.
As disturbing as it is to realize the perception of anonymity is a fundamental necessity in most business models, scientists, law enforcement, sexually creepy people with too much power and money, and propagandists we all must realize civilization is at stake with regards to the minds of our children and dopamine-exploitative imprinting patterns.
Those imprinting processes need not be so addictive and must be regulated. Woe is to the companies business models that will impact but the future is at stake here. No child has been adequately protected from these processes in my lifetime.
> civilization is at stake
There is no civilization when basic values are missing. Either people are dignified or beasts, and those compromises are only for beasts. The dignified will not live tracked, especially if potentially by the beasts: that remains totally strict. Outside that, you only have a veneer of civilization.
> the future is at stake here
The present and the future are at stake when somebody thinks that access to culture must be forbidden to those in formative years.
> child has been adequately protected from these processes in my lifetime
Children who have been raised properly are protected from those processes. Children who have been raised properly do not consume trash, and will recognize and seek good mental food - I witness that. People who have been raised properly avoid addictive behaviour.
I have yet to see any evidence that 'children raised properly' would be immune from these practices.
It's like saying children from good households never get addicted to drugs. Wrong.
What's also wrong is that these are not just drugs they're personally identifiable targed drugs specifically designed for children that log all interaction.
We can strive to have digital interactions without the unwanted addiction.
The drug itself is not bad, it's just bad for kids. This is why, dear citizen, you have to give up your privacy.
It's always kids and terrorism.
I feel society is going in a direction where there is no longer any individual responsibility. Instead everything is delegated to the state. Can't limit your kids screen time? Not your fault, it is the evil algorithm and it is up to your government to discipline your children. Being a parent will be reduced to providing your gametes.
> In particular, the bill bans design features such as infinite scrolling, artificial notifications and certain reward mechanisms.
Honestly I think it's good that there are more guide rails and safeguards implemented for kids.
As with any rules and regulations there will be loop holes and big corporations will still try to get away with as much as they can. But blocking the most harmful mechanisms and content while still keeping access open seems very reasonable.
> tech companies would be required to make their digital services safe by design
Sometimes I think even adults would benefit from rules blocking addictive features and mechanisms.
> [infinite scrolling, artificial notifications and certain reward mechanisms]
Of course the removal of bad algorithms is a good thing, but that is not the problem with the proposed legislation and approach.
> still keeping access open
What tells you that access will remain open? How will they implement access control? This is the big question, and the very fact that they are not replying to that clearly defines their faults.
> Sometimes I think even adults
They are again unrecognized minors of unduly age. Societies should minimize the phenomenon. Instead, they clumsily encourage it. To have adults in society you need to create and adult oriented society. To obtain adults in society you have to create the foundation in proper education.
The grandma will now take your computers away, kids. I'd say 10 years too late as GenZ already happened.
> already happened
And it will only worsen with impeded access to material for cultivation. The failures in education are of paramount importance and the proper orientation from people capable of saying "no access to culture, for your protection" is dubious as an understatement.
As someone that has had that experience when Timex 2068 was considered modern, and all that Nintendo did were Game&Watch handhelds, I am fine with it, there are other activities to keep one busy.
Really exhausting this tyranny of the commission elected by no one that is totally morally corrupt and the power tool of a few lobbies to advance their agenda like censoring and so.
It is because of them that the trust in Europe is at an all time low and that nationalist political movements are gaining so much traction in European countries.
They don't respect the citizen will but then pretend to not understand when far right is winning election all over Europe.
[dead]