I am 36 and I have been thinking about suicide a tiny bit lately. But I will share my perspective with you, hopefully to draw a picture how different circumstances can be. I live in Ukraine and my optionality in life collapsed the day the war started. I had a good life, good income and traveled a lot. I used to dream of a career in big tech and life in different countries just to give it a taste. Now I am not able to leave the country because I am a male of conscription age. My city is being attacked by drones daily, and ballistic rockets a few times a month. Witnessing your country getting wrecked with rockets and drones is hell of an experience. Businesses, electricity plants, infrastructure, gas stations becoming rubble. There is also little hope in a resolution of this soon. I have to work on a job which provides a reservation from military service if I don’t want to fight, otherwise I will be picked up on the street to join the military.
I have it so much better than a lot of my countrymen, but holy shit does this suck and it is not getting better anytime soon. The hopelessness gets you.
Software engineering is one of my last remaining pillars of life remaining more or less intact. At least I get to write some code and make computers do things.
18. same ass of a country (to outsiders, have a look at all the countless debacles concerning corruption to understand why "ass"), except that I have 7 mostly worry-free years left to live and the market for juniors (and thus, me) is closed. if I get drafted, I'm waiting out for an opportunity to shoot my head.
honestly, having a decently paying blue-collar job made me think whether tech is worth it at all, given that I'll lose all the extra benefits (from canteen to proper bomb shelter to gym to commute) and cut my already tight paycheck by 20-25%. for what? for "tech"? where I have to be able to wake up at 3AM when the client's LLM took down their prod, commute to a vulnerable office in Kyiv (and pay for expensive AND equally vulnerable housing there), live under a threat of getting fired because I was "not AI enough" or whatever management wants, or because I don't have gigabit Wi-Fi in the shelter? fuck it, I'll rather be a night-shift loader and idk, learn embedded at home.
the world devolving into proompting has ruined tech for me. prolly I'll get a Cat. C driver's license and spend little what I have remaining of life on the road. if I get lucky, I may eventually reach CE and Euro 95 certs, and that in turn gives me some sort of safety against mobilization.
if the war ends before I become 25, I'll likely end up a stereotypical himbo truck driver. I'm tired of having to perform the smartness.
You have my sympathy. I can't offer you any advice, but I was just thinking earlier about how awful I feel for younger people working in this industry, and that didn't even include being Ukrainian.
Thank you, and one in the above comment, for sharing this. I feel comments like these need to be seen more frequently by people not in your situation. Hard claim I can even imagine what it feels like.
Necessity is the mother of invention and I can only imagine the volume of necessity that your environment demands. If fighting is not an option, can you use your skills to make some lemonade out of a giant bowl of lemons?
I hope more than anything Ukrainians will stay strong and persevere. Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. The mere fact that you are Ukrainian and live in Ukraine invokes a certain level of respect.
> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends.
I hope more than anything that Ukraine (and Russia, and Israel, and Palestine, and all the war-torn regions of the world) can one day be free of this ghoulish mindset, that world leaders will choose life instead of worshipping death
You're probably was lucky to be born in war-free region, so it is easy to
label things as ghoulish from a position of morally concerned outsider. You was never forced
to leave your homeland and become a refugee, you was not separated from your loved ones
by the border of warring countries, your friends and loved ones were not killed or imprisoned
by invading nazi army.
And it's a good thing for yourself, but you are not in a suitable position to judge Ukrainians or Syrians
or other peoples who have been through it.
It’s not ghoulish but it also perpuates a never ending cycle unfortunately- we as in each culture, man, woman are all wronged in so many ways and most have legitimate grievances and are skilled in restarting and kindling those grievances with the next batch of children..ironically religion and nationalism kindles that even further while also providing a base identity to create fellowship between its adherents
But is the only way out further death and destruction?
Fighting back to protect yourself is one thing, but exacting revenge leads to a cycle of violence. Especially when it is on an entire nationality or ethnicity.
on a serious note, it really is. death/execution as a punishment makes no sense. there are fates worse than death for those whose offenses we'd love to spill the blood for. Alcatraz is one such place where those fates are served.
and for crimes that are not enough to execute for, bog-standard prisons are enough. they are imperfect, but those willing to change prove themselves there, and a good one should give enough opportunities for a criminal to re-educate, reconsider some of their life choices, and rehabilitate.
We're not talking a finished crime where "peaceful" punishment is an option. It is an ongoing war, missiles destroy cities and lives. When someone is doing that to you, killing them is usually the only way to stop it. Surrendering is not an option, see Bucha.
agree. yet, most of the time, most people have enforcement infra, and having an intent to kill, and not resisting it, is ghoulish. that way, one is perpetuating the very cycle that Europe attempted to stop within itself through coal and steel
But Europe isn’t really supporting Ukraine, they’re just providing enough supplies to keep them in the fight. No state seems willing to provide enough assistance to allow for Ukrainian victory, because of the costs and risks associated with that aid. Even countries at little risk of reprisal from Russia are reluctant to do much at all.
As such, all of us doing nothing more than “voicing support” on the internet and some far-away rally, should offer our empathy, and not presume to tell them how much we’re “helping”.
None of the European countries are doing much relative to their economies. Russia's GDP is about the same as Italy's. The rest of the EU and NATO countries together have an economy that is enormously larger than Russia's. So why do they allow Russia to push them around?
I'm extremely sorry to hear about your life and honestly I don't want to be someone who is provides faux comfort saying everything will be alright. However, I am trying to imagine myself in your shoes and if it ever came to a point where I thought it my life is better off taken out, I would be willing to explore my absolute last options, no matter how miniscule the probability may be. Maybe some variant of high-risk emmigration? Maybe there's a waterway or a boat route or underground passage or forest or something.If I was anyway planning to take my life away without giving these extremely low probability options a chance, might as well go down with a fight. Probably this is naive, but that's only because I have personally never been in such a situation ever to even be able to provide a decent enough advice. I am completely baffled and very sorry you are going through this. You're not the first one to share this experience and probably won't be the last and at times like this it irritates me the feminist organizations all over the world have been dead silent on this matter. Equality only when it benefits them, I guess. I wish you good luck and hopefully get to meet you in person to learn of your amazing story of survival.
Whatever I'm about to say may sound hollow, given that I've not been in your shoes.
At my previous (well known tech) company, we had a number of older Romanians who grew up in the Communist era. I became close with one of them. And the stories he told me were just harrowing. They were not at war, but the government simply couldn't provide for the people (other than giving them a good education). The struggle for basic necessities in the 80's became real. He had a wife and a newborn, and the wife was sick, and they couldn't afford any furniture. There was real concern the baby would die because the mother couldn't get even basic rest (no mattress, no bed, sleeping on concrete floor, etc).
The stuff he had to do to ensure she got a bed was crazy.
And then later there were food shortages, etc. Dodging bullets, etc.
But they all somehow persevered and focused on surviving. And then got out of the country as soon as the borders opened up. Eventually, because of their skills, they got great jobs. Very senior and well respected in the company.
But of course, they know people who did lose hope and ultimately committed suicide.
Living in the US, I've encountered lots of former refugees from war zones. People like yourself with skills did well here. For sure they struggled, but eventually they all "made it".
If you have skills, I hope you can last long enough to get there too.
If you're going to kill yourself anyway, why not just acquiesce? (To Russia.) This question may be stupid depending on the reader but I'm asking sincerely.
Can you avoid conscription by volunteering your SW engineering talents for the defense sector? That was an option in many 20th-century wars but I don't know if it's relevant these days.
As an American, I'd like to say I'm as horrified by our faithless leadership as you are frightened by the circumstances you're facing, but that just sounds pointlessly shallow. All of Western civilization has a stake in keeping Putin at bay, but only your country is being forced to confront that fact right now. We should feel grateful to Ukraine, and in fact many of us do.
Suffice it to say we aren't all aligned with Musk and Trump, and many of us fervently wish we could do more to help in a meaningful capacity. Trouble is, about a third of our eligible voters have decided to put a single party decisively in charge of all of our branches of government, and the way our system is structured, that leaves the rest of us more or less powerless. That will hopefully change soon, but we'll see. Try to stay strong, and we will try as well.
Because it's highly relevant, I'm going to paraphrase a comment I made last week:
I think a big part of the problem is that middle-aged men are at the apex of their expectations to be successful in the eyes of society, and we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
There is a name for this in sociology: anomie [1]. Émile Durkheim coined it in his book Suicide, written not too long after the Industrial Revolution.
In times of great change, the set of norms and rules that we take for granted as an organizing principle of our lives get uprooted. It's as if all of the pieces and tokens and rules of the board game we played our whole lives are swept off the table to make room for a new game, but the new game has not been set up yet. In that interim, we all feel a sense of unease. It is our turn to move, but we don't know the rules of the game or what moves to make. We feel intense pressure to play the game well, but don't know how.
In the past, these transitions have ended and society has generally returned to some sense of stability. A new board game gets set up, new pieces doled out, we learn to play the new game. I hope we get to that point with AI soon, but the revolutions seem to keep coming faster and faster.
I think for a lot of men, it feels like just at the time when we should be able to rest on our laurels a bit after having worked so hard to play the game society told us to, the rules have been ripped out from under us and any sense of security going forward is lost. We feel too old to learn the new rules of the game in time to play well, but not old enough to be able to abstain from playing.
Well said! 5 years ago I could have a pretty solid picture of what my career would look like through retirement.
Today, unclear what that would look like as well as unclear if the career will even exist that long.
One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright. I've been talking with older folks, and loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife.
pivot to what though, if "mind" jobs are going to be automated, it's not like there's a category of jobs that opens up, and going from mental to physical jobs in your 50s doesn't seem that easy
Physical jobs will drop in demand and increase in supply too. Unemployed "mind" workers don't have much to spend to drive much demand in manual work, and they might even try to pivot themselves to manual work, making things worse for manual workers.
and those who did the "mind jobs" 30-40 years ago retain that wealth, while wages plummet and they don't have to give up any significant part of their wealth to get what they want. This destroys class mobility , creating a type of feudalism.
>loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife
Lots of people didn't have their field automated away though alongside most other knowledge work fields, or seen at the same time a drop in demand in manual work and an oversupply (drop in demand because of upcoming AI layoffs, and oversupply in manual fields, because of same)
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright.
I'm 41 and I could, in theory, pivot. But realistically: I'm good at exactly one thing in this world in terms of job ability. I can cook, I can bake, I can play music, but none nearly well enough to actually make a living on it. Thus the end of my tech career, if it should come to pass, basically means I will have to work menial jobs to get by. The future is very bleak for me, and the only real hope is that the tech industry will wake up to what a bad job LLMs do compared to humans. But while I think they will do that eventually, there's no telling how long it will take, and the thought that the market will eventually correct is cold comfort if I can't get a job in the meantime.
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long.
Not sure exactly where you are in it, but as a 53 year old I disagree. The younger I was the less likely I would have been to disagree but imo/ime the older you get the faster it feels like it is flying by.
> and a full pivot is alright
The AI-related existential dread is that it is very unclear what a pivot looks like when the ground under everything is shifting all at once.
The shifting is certainly a lot more obvious in our career than some others, but all of that shift (so far) happened more or less in a mere 10 months and is accelerating. And I don't think it is very likely that our career will stay anomalous for very long in terms of how much AI impact there is.
yeah, you're down to like 3/4 a career left, it makes sense that you feel that way. Less runway ought to feel different.
I do agree that a safe 'next' is unclear. But I also think if ai truly hits all knowledge work as hard as it might we're looking at up to 50% unemployment. Frankly there is no point career planning at all in that scenario. We will all have much larger problems.
And if it doesn't, then pivoting to some field with a combination of rewarding work and 'enough' pay seems sensible enough.
+1. Also maybe it's an age where responsibilities start to peak. More senior positions in the workplace, having children, marriage, etc.
I've had a few stressful periods lately where it felt or feels like I can't load any more on to my plate and I don't even have that many responsibilities - no kids either, just an accumulation of small and background things needing dealt with. I think I do understand people who do commit suicide to an extent - if you add the above normal stresses of life to some highly stressful life events like a breakup or divorce and throw kids etc into the mix - and hey why not a pile of work related stress too - I can absolutely see how people get pushed to the edge.
Modern society has not been arranged in a way that sets people up for success. Staring at device screens for more hours year on year likely doesn't help.
Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
This isn't even a flippant comment (especially given the subject matter); being at this age and thinking "I imagined it would all be easy by now" does hit home.
> You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
Do people who say this have kids? I ask genuinely. Everything before my little dude was fake. Everything since him is real deal Holyfield. Probably knock off in the next 20 minutes and take him to Home Depot to look at some bullshit because we have a good time with that kind of thing.
I can imagine having kids is super rewarding, but also amplifies the pressure of being a provider probably 100x. In uncertain times, I think a lot of us aren't sure how we'll provide for ourselves in ~5 years, let alone a tiny dude, which plays into the decision to not have kids.
I'm still gainfully employed, and business is ripping, but a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year. So part of me is extremely glad I don't have kids right now, and part of me is really angry that everything feeling so unstable is leading to our decision to not have them. I know that even in the best time it's a scary decision, but the general vibe is flipping people (like my wife and i) who are at the margin.
I would think those with kids at that age that wanted them worked backwards from that mission, and if they have a midlife crisis it's some version of having spent too much time working and on their kid and start spending their money on low-impact possibly expensive hobbies they'd have liked to do in their younger years, somewhat in denial of the fact that they sold their whole life to the man despite raising a kid.
that's what I felt about moving to a different country, too, until I didn't.
I think these things are less consistent than is often stated, we just see them occur consistently among people with similar lives. The "mid life crisis" is also debunked and replaced by "existential crisis" since it can actually occur at any age, from teenager to elderly, and zero, one, or multiple times. Only in the classic life progression of a certain era, it typically occurred worst at around 40-45 so it got that label.
More: Every time we point to this situation, we get insulted as incels. Sorry, I'm a multi millionaire, so I can provide, muscular, so I don't look too bad and have my health in order, CEO so I have some social status, and my love life has been terrible, I'm thinking of going to prostitutes to close the loop on being treated like shit.
Clearly there's something wrong in the dating market, women don't want to make families anymore, they literally don't want kids, and those who do, it's with wifeveaters. I know, "it must be you", "all men find women so you're probably a cunt" — I get it, I get it. We're truely the lost souls of today's world.
The only thing keeping me alive is the idea of revenge against the people who insult us like this.
Based on this one comment, my attempt at diagnosing what's going on in your situation is that you're probably relying too much on your money and job title to attract dates. As a result, the women you attract are approaching you transactionally from the very beginning. Nothing you wrote here told me you'd be a good person to raise kids with. I'm not a woman, but if I were, I'd be asking myself whether I thought you'd be helping with laundry or dishes or changing diapers when you didn't want to. I'd be worried you might get bored of that stuff, expect / demand sex, and justify it by claiming your job is too hard / important or you make all the money (even if you don't).
I'm definitely speculating quite a bit but I've met a lot of characters in my time and this is a very common pattern with a particular sort of middle-aged single man with a successful career.
I don't doubt that social media and dating apps may have broken the "market", but if you're living for revenge then women can probably pick up on that.
The midlife crisis is probably better described as a change or unease in the self and not knowing why you get out of bed in the morning anymore and that entire adventure, whereas this anomie is the social environment you're moored to breaking down.
Also to work so hard, and even when you have good luck as well, to see the people around you adapting their expectations so fast that they're blasé about what feels like amazing luck and success to you, and to realize that you can never satisfy them, only inevitably let them down when you experience setbacks.
> Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
I think there's a step change from say the silent gen/baby boomer generations where a midlife crisis was realizing you lived the classic "American Dream" but weren't going to be a rockstar or super wealthy, compared to now where a midlife crisis could easily be wondering if you will continue to have any economic value at all years before social security kicks in.
Admittedly this is America-centric, but that's my lived perspective, and also I recognize that things weren't always very stable even here, thus why I am comparing a couple of specific generations to the ones that followed.
There was, for a time when I was younger (as a Gen-Xer), just an assumed sense that each generation would have it better than the last. Naive, perhaps, but alas. And obviously far less people assume that anymore.
Don't forget that social security has been raided and won't even be available for those of us reaching middle age right now and the people we keep electing who say they will do something about it have shown over and over and over that they actually won't.
Anomie plus helplessness plus a feeling of a rug pull of the laws/equality/character of our country. I am not suicidal but wow I get it.
SS was not "raided" . Whatever made you think that is surely contributing to human misery. It's just running out because it's always been a scheme where the young pay the old and we have fewer young than old. The people getting SS payments, themselves paid into it! It's not any sort of raid, corruption, evil...
I thought it was possible a generation could have it worse off through an economic crisis or period of 70s style malaise, but I at least thought the government would attempt to improve the lives of its citizens. I didn't expect the ruling political party to be so aggressively trying to make our lives worse.
I have however run out of fucks and am ignorantly coasting and making optimal survival decisions only. Fuck the business. Fuck the career. Highly recommended.
Hah likewise. In the early 2003's I was accepted into two of the top compsci universities in Canada but was rejected by the government for a student loan (my parent's income was too high, the government said-- they should pay. thanks government, no shit).
So I put all my fucks into working my ass off. Started dishwashing. Became a cook. Then owned a bakery. Built up a portfolio, became a sysadmin for a large company. After 6 or 7 years the writing was on the wall that I'd be replaced with a call center and some low wagies so I left.
Been working a do-nothing laid back remote job for a year now and never happier. My only source of stress is thinking that giving a shit when I was young would actually lead somewhere when I had the rug pulled under me from the get-go.
> we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
Do you think this has changed from say 10 or 20 years ago? To me, I don't get the sense that there has been shift in the social definition of success. Maybe I'm missing something?
Part of working through history from (only) 100 years ago is an impression of how quickly societies were changing then. This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
Which isn't to downplay the upheaval that people are in - it is definitely traumatic. But we've been through disruption before. Hopefully we'll make fewer costly mistakes this time...
> This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
I don't think we should wish such evil upon future generations. The industrial revolution was a terrible time to live through, and arguably was not beneficial in the end to humanity. I would be very happy if we never had such a change again.
We can separate the table clearing from how we treat the players of the previous game.
We don't have many coal miners any more. How do we treat the people who used to be coal miners, when we get to 100% clean power? If we are running society well, we give them a hero's sendoff and a nice comfortable retirement life. If we are running society poorly, we take away their homes and healthcare to punish them for not having jobs any more.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I used to have plans for the future, I had the next couple of years mapped out. Then I tried AI and my plans simply dissolved. I have no idea what's going to happen now.
Feels like all the effort I put into coming this far was invalidated overnight. The writing is on the wall, and now I have about five years to get rich at any cost until it's all over. Now I'm firing from the hip in all directions, trying to hit something, anything.
I used to enjoy programming as a hobby, writing articles. It's all so meaningless now. What's the point?
maybe some just don't want to live that long. does everyone need to live as long as possible? you live your youth, and maybe that is enough for some.
if you start to hurt every day, get diagnosed with age-related disease, your cognition starts to deteriorate, etc, you might just decide "hey, i lived enough. i don't want to go through years of feeling like this."
I think about this increasingly often. I have accomplished much, and have seen much of the world. I have also lived through gruesome deaths in my family and have seen how aging in America, under American healthcare looks.
I retired in 2023, not because I could, but because I couldn't not. I'm almost 50. My parents died in their early 60s. I have some of their health problems, and some of my own. I also destroyed my back in a motorcycle accident many years ago and live with constant pain.
My favorite things to do, which bring my peace and joy, involve me sitting in a chair, which hurts my back. In my youth I rode my bicycle avidly, which now hurts my back. I love gardening, and if I do it too much, it hurts my back.
It became increasingly clear to me that my "purpose" in this country is to work until I die. I know that there are other countries, and other kinds of lives, but they are not where my wife and friends and life are.
I am happy, relatively healthy, and love life. I would like to live forever if I could. I know I could fill every minute of it with things I find interesting, even if it was just reading every single book.
But I've seen what American life looks like in your 60s and older, and it's not fucking pretty for most people.
Are you me? My old motorbike injuries are a little more distributed but -- like yours -- almost entirely crippling from the perspective of doing anything joyful; we're in the same bucket yearwise; and it sounds like we always visit the doctor with just the one bullet in the chamber.
Mostly just posting to say, hey, there's others out here like you. Hang in there, Almost-Me. If not, see you on the other side.
A hurting back on a bike might be an issue of bike fit. Bicycle touring is a hobby regarded as accessible to even the elderly, and indeed one often comes across people age 50-80 on popular routes. Many of them will complain about a bad back off the bike when doing other things like camping or carrying panniers, but a fitted bike should not strain one's back.
Deadlifts helped my chronic congenital back pain that is probably some combination of DDD and scoliosis and multiple herniations. Yes sometimes it pisses off the disks and I'm pretty useless for a day or two. And yes it has added some other problems. But overall I went from constant sharp pain nearly unable to remain seated, to occasional dull pain I can ignore, and rarely some really bad pain. Overall it's much better of a life.
That's why Mishima topped himself at the age of 45: as a physical-conditioning buff and gay man, he came to a firsthand realization that it was all downhill from there. What you posted is very similar in spirit to the opening of his last novel.
For most people, the real physical deterioration doesn't have to kick in until age 65 or so (plus or minus). But you do have to show up every day and hit it hard. In the last triathlon I raced there were men in that age group still finishing with fast times. And they're not genetic freaks either, just consistent.
I defined success for myself quite a few years ago: I want to leave the world better than I found it. No high aspirations, no figure. Just better than it was.
Some of that is political advocacy. Some of that is open source code that should exist. Some of that is helping a neighbor. I don't need to hit a certain bar, I just need to know that in a given interaction or situation, I am trying to make things... at least a little better.
That also scales well to differing life decisions. The video game I'm playing, can I get people to play a little nicer with each other and have more fun? Workplaces are full of dumb stuff, success is making it at least a little better. Turns out I have kids now. Wasn't the plan, but now my obligation is to make sure my involvement in their lives is positive. Not a specific bar I have to achieve, but you know, someday I hope someone appreciates how I chose to live my life.
"To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch... to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!" - Emerson
Yup, I tell my partner all the time. I just want the new era to be here already. I hate this waiting. I'm very annoyingly optimistic and think we're headed for post-scarcity.
In wealthy first-world countries we're already post-scarcity to a first approximation for stuff like food, clothing, and consumer electronics (I do understand that a minority of people are still desperately poor). But the stuff that people really covet will always be scarce. For example, AI can't create new real estate in prime locations.
Eh, I don't think today is really all that different from the last 100 years. We as software engineers may feel different as it's (maybe) our turn in the barrel.
I'm 40, and I am not suicidal, but I've definitely felt those thoughts more than ever in my life in the past two years. I wake up two or three times every night from anxiety dreams. I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit. Between (some of) the effects of AI on my career and hobbies, and the effects of politics on my country and even my own town, and many more problems, I can count more things I feel love and passion for that have been demeaned or destroyed in the past decade than such things that persist.
And this isn't even to mention money, and what my future is looking like, despite having every possible intrinsic and external advantage in The Greatest Country on Earth.
I've had one same-aged friend kill themselves, and I try to be attentive to the signals being put out by everybody in my circle.
> I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit.
Alcohol is incredibly dangerous after 40, particularly if you've got a history as a heavy drinker. I've had to cut back to virtually nothing as it's guaranteed to trigger anxiety and depressive episodes.
Almost all the premature deaths in my circle, including suicides, have been alcohol-linked.
Obviously, YMMV, everyone's different, but if anyone reading this thread is over 40, struggling, and still drinking regularly, taking a break can really help.
I celebrated 20 years since my last drink on Monday of this week.
People who want to drink--should drink.
People who don't want to drink but find that they keep doing it anyway, might want to check out what AA has to offer. It worked for me when nothing else did.
I switched to NA beer so that when I did decide to “have a few” it would be a rare occasion. Then I realized that NA beer was doing it for me and I haven’t gone back. It’s not for everyone but it worked for me.
I quit 2 years ago. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Sad, to think at one time I almost opened a brewery.
And it's bad for you, yes, and that's why I quit, it was fucking with my sleep horribly, but also it's such a drain on your finances today. And given the state of things today, I'm glad I quit when I did. Saving a grand a year isn't a lot but that money is much better off being spent in a different way.
I wanted to open a brewery too! I now realize it was probably just fuel for my addiction, though I do genuinely love the flavors of modern craft beers (which have come a long way). But not nearly as much as I love a stable life lol
I was homebrewing for years in the late 00s and early 10s. At the time I was living in Santa Barbara, and there was a great community there, the Santa Barbeerians, and it was a lot of fun. At the same time I was roasting my own coffee beans and really into coffee. My wife and I floated the idea of opening a place with another couple but it never panned out.
Anyway I don't disagree, in retrospect it was all a way to drink more beer in different styles than I could readily get from a store. It's easy to justify in the moment but having many gallons of beer around all of the time is dangerous...
I'm 41. My youngest brother blew his brains out in July. My other brother has cut himself twice. I quit my job as an EMT because I'm in no mood to transport SI patients. I needed a job on short notice to keep making my mortgage payments, so now I'm breaking my body 50-60 hrs/wk pouring concrete with the Amish. And it doesn't even cover the bills.
I can't afford health insurance, let alone health care. 0 sick days, 0 vacation time, $0 leisure spending. Credit card debt ticks up each month. Retirement savings is a pipe dream. How could I conscionably attempt a family under these conditions? I'd never have time to be a part of it and would be plagued by the guilt of not being able to provide.
But hey, I'm told to feel lucky I managed to lock in a 30-year mortgage at 5.99%: If I'm diligent paying on it until I've got a foot in the grave, selling the house might pay for end-of-life care!
I’ve lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well. So much has happened that it’s impossible to pinpoint one root cause, it’s all contributing.
Don’t know if you’re soliciting advice, but there are a few things that keep me feeling the way I did before: physical exercise, and live music. Unfortunately I find less time as the week goes by to dedicate to those things, but I at least know they’re there.
> I've lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well.
I felt similarly and had a "crisis" point at the start of 2025. I realised that living a fulfilling life had to become my top priority, no matter how difficult or uncomfortable it may seem. Otherwise, I might not survive another 30 years.
Now I can see a bit of the mechanism behind the dimming of the spark. I had gradually conceded the direction of my life to external forces, and let anxiety and self-doubt drive my decisions. It's a great way to end up with a life that you don't want. I shudder to think of what it's like to do that for 20 years instead of 5.
Not to be a downer. It is therapeutic, and I exercise 5-6 times per week between strength and conditioning, but it's not enough. It's a short distraction, it helps me temporarily. The truth is there's something very wrong with the world today and the pressure we're all feeling, speaking personally here, leaves me feel like I'm ready to crack constantly. But I have a wife and kids and elderly parents, and they all depend on me so I need to keep holding it together. Somehow.
AI hasn't made a dent in my enjoyment of my hobbies and tech (the opposite, now I have more toys to play with than ever), but politics? Oh man, politics becoming the new religion has absolutely ruined pretty much everything for me.
I don't believe in politics. For me left and right are all *the same*. Just a bunch of megalomaniacs wanting to hog power for themselves. This extremely hot take has made people call me more names and costed me more relationships than if I went out and started screaming slurs in a crowded street. Because I am a "fence sitter" or whatever.
And I just can't handle it anymore, I just went full recluse. I don't go into social media anymore, I don't talk to anyone at a personal level anymore. Outside of some github issues and some comments here, I don't touch socials anymore. I am just overwhelmed by the level of vitriol and hate the new internet is based on.
I don't know how sincere this comment is, but if there are others thinking this way, it's a mistake. Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Social media is a veil of manipulation, engagement maximization, and bots. Do not misconstrue it as any kind of real or productive politics. There is a signal there amongst the noise, but it's hard to make sense of if you do not have a coherent world model or belief system. You have to learn to cut through it if you want to keep your sanity.
Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway? My belief is that all of us, no matter our gender, religion, age or social standing, are prey for the political and "elite" class. And not only we aren't holding them accountable, we are fighting their fights for them in several fields of our lives in form of "political discourse".
My country has a very serious housing crisis, both the left and the right are contributing to it because both parties have multiple people who are "serial landlords" with several properties, so they only make laws that benefit the landlord. This is a known fact and there are huge protests ongoing about it to the point emergency elections have been called.
Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on. Like you have some ulterior motive or are a paid shill from the other side or making the logic leap to thinking you support the far-right for not choosing one of the two existing "teams". Everything has gone crazy.
> Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway?
HN is social media, saner than most, but I still don't assume sincerity.
> Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on.
If you mean people online, then that's expected. It's what I meant by social media being unproductive. Hostility attracts engagement and makes it more visible.
National politics is heavily influenced by economic interests, including global capital. And as wealth concentrates so does political power. That doesn't mean ordinary citizens have no political agency though, don't underestimate the difference you can make in your local community.
Mostly online yes, but even offline people have been in a very strange edge lately. Like, if you don't take a stance to one of the two main political parties in my country, that means you support the third option which is a far-right party. If any of the members of that party bumped me on the street I wouldn't recognize them. Anyway, once that implication is on the table people start assuming (and saying behind your back) very ugly things about you very fast, which is why I started disengaging.
My heart is with the people, not the corporations or the elites. I just feel none of the choices right now is for the people. I don't understand why that would make me "hate LGBT people or migrants". It just doesn't make sense to me. The team mentality of the whole thing has gone too far in my opinion. And I don't understand why people get so heated up for groups that don't care about them at the end of the day.
I don't even think I'll be alive to see another election after the emergency one next month though. So it's too late for me to make any meaningful change. So I'm just trying to use my remaining time to leave a bit of a legacy as an artist and programmer. Even if I enjoy AI. One thing doesn't cancel the other. I do mostly analog art and even have been pretty excited to try new tools now that my hand works again (surgeries obliterated my hands for a while and they are permanently blue-ish and cold now, but I regained some mobility this month). AI is for me "that thing I wanted since I was a kid when scifi had AIs doing stuff".
In fact, that whole thing is also another can of worms. People can't seem to understand I can be an artist AND enjoy AI. The moment I mention AI people start assuming I flood the world with slop and want to destroy artists, then they ask for proof that I'm an artist, I show them my work (impossible for an AI to replicate because it's mostly analog), they go "but if you can draw like this why do you use AI!?? You should hate it because it's against you" and they can't conceive that for me it's just fun to tinker with it and test what it can do for fun. Like I should immediately take an anti-AI stance BECAUSE I am an artist. The AI is not replacing me because for me art is a form of expression and doing it is its own reward. It's just fun. Both things are fun to me. I don't see why they are exclusive.
It's like there's no room for human nuance and contradictions anymore. You have to be in a neat little box or else you are a bad person so it's right to fight you and hurt you. It's "justified", you know. Even if they are completely wrong, they already passed judgement.
I think most folks are actually in the middle and generally agree. Anyone who thinks one of the us political parties is completely innocent is lying, either to you or themselves.
That being said, I think it's worth noticing if one party does more bad things than the other and I also think speaking up with your values is worth it and maybe even a duty we owe the people who built this country before us.
Either way, your first responsibility is your own mental health so you have full support from this internet stranger.
>Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Nihilism is a popular, vague pejorative today but philosophically it's a serious answer to exactly the manipulation, engagement-bait and juvenile techno-optimism of our age. Whenever you're at the end of some moral or social period active, not resentful or passive nihilism, is a palate cleanser and necessary condition for revaluation of all values.
The kind of middle aged men that tend to fall into despair or suicide in these times are usually people who rely on some identity provided to them that then crumbles. Job, money, house, status, 'how to be a man' etc. There's something they're supposed to be like and they're not, stability they took for granted just stops.
And we're in a period like this across many dimensions, political, technological etc. And if you want to be sane a dose of nihilism is fairly important so that you can go on and construct some sovereign answers to all these issues.
Same, in many senses. But you can’t fully detach from humanity without losing your own humanity. Forget socials, and pretty much all media consumption, but go talk to real people, make friends, find an human partner. Even raise a family.
Sadly I can't raise a family. This January I got a pretty bad brush with death and got diagnosed with something pretty bad and I don't have a lot left. After 5 high-risk surgeries (because of the medication making me bleed too much) I finally regained some autonomy and can move again, but I can't have kids. My bloodline ends with me, and it's better this way because this is hereditary and gets worse every generation. My kids would die at ~20 if lucky, according to the doctors.
Even knowing this, people around me still called me all sorts of things for not having strong opinions on random political things or wars. How can I worry about that when I am going to die soon anyway? Got enough in my plate to think about global politics.
Jeez, in so sorry to hear that. I personally know multiple people who’ve far exceeded their “you have X time to live”, but in any case live life as best you see fit for happiness and contentment. Spend time with people you love and ignore all the bullshit that stresses us out. Best of luck my friend
Sadly, all my loved ones are already gone from the same illness, so I'm afraid I can't take your advice. All I got left is a couple online friends, my job (of which I've been away for too long due to the surgeries...) and my computers. I'm trying to make the most of what time I got left doing coding and art, now that my hands kinda work again. I found a box of very cool quality markers when I could finally get out and been practicing with them. I was always a color pencil/watercolors guy, but this is pretty cool. Since I enjoy drawing robots and vehicles a lot I've been combining them with metallic markers for very cool effects. I am also learning how to do more physical electronics tinkering and getting better with a soldering iron at last, repairing old stuff and so.
I also enjoy the new wave of AI stuff. It took a while but I finally got a little robot buddy like in scifi when I was little. Full offline. It's kind of a dum-dum, but mostly works!
Unfortunately it's such a negative thing outside of places like HN that I can't share that joy with most people. Also a lot of people can't seem to wrap their head around an artist that enjoys AI, as I mentioned in another post in the thread. I have to shut up about it pretty much everywhere.
"Go talk to real people" is easier said than done post-Covid. I'm in a European university city where even young people are complaining online of a dearth of opportunities for in-person socializing -- there is a good amount of cultural events and cafes to go out to every night, but it has become taboo to talk to strangers there even among young people, and a single middle-aged man's attempts to socialize anywhere would not be welcomed. Even people attending the remaining hobby meetups are finding merely practice of the hobby, but not any meaningful social contact alongside it.
Social media is poison, sure, but detaching from it doesn't mean you can get an IRL social life to replace it.
Yo I'm also strictly apolitical and never had an issue with relationships or social circles, I just tell everyone I meet that "I do not talk politics, because maintaining my mental health is a full time job without putting the weight of the entire country/world onto my shoulders in addition" and so far they've all understood. The radicals who wouldn't understand I just say goodbye to, but this hasn't happened yet.
This is a bait comment because any push back will just re-affirm your stance and I don’t know if you’ll find much agreement here otherwise. Millions of people died in WWII defending against ideas that are actively being brought by a clear side.
FWIW it’s not that hard to be a fence sitter and not advertise it to everyone. It sounds like either you’re hanging with the wrong people, or you’re the problem. I guess go back to playing with your toys!
I know friends and family with many kinds of beliefs, we don’t rehash why they believe those things every time we see each other. Humans are complex /shrug
I voted you both up, because you're both right. Those who aren't dying before their time have an obligation to their future selves to make things better. Unfortunately it sounds as if you have a good excuse to begin letting go of worldly concerns, but the truth is, only the worst people benefit if the rest of us adopt an apolitical perspective.
See my other post in this thread, for example, replying to a Ukrainian who's finding that people he thought could be counted on can't be. As I suggested obliquely in that post, this is because one-third of our electorate is either brainwashed or malicious, one-third is willing to do what we can, and one-third can't be bothered to care either way.
Our brains are constantly bombarded with ever growing information and noise. With mindfulness, deliberate separation from most of the daily noise we can all zero in our own purposes in life. This hard, doesn’t happen overnight but with little steps and a lot of patience we will find that eventual purpose. And you find it hang on to it. I found reading the New Testament brings me instant peace when my brain is in turmoil.
Hang in there strong with spiritual closeness, removing noise and avoiding those negative thoughts.
It's ironic that the "acktually.." atheist/anti-theist crowd don't do a modicum of research when it comes to this kind of stuff. It's pretty well-established in the literature that folks plugged into a religious community live better, happier, and healthier lives[1].
> Of eight R/S predictors that were distinguished, only participation in public religious activities and importance of religion were significantly related to mental health
> folks plugged into a community live better, happier, and healthier lives
It is this mainly. Community is the reason most people find happiness. Some people find it at church, some on a Sunday at a football game, some at their dnd game that’s being going on for years and some find it in their family. I am not particularly religious but I am 100% onboard the idea that community brings happiness. I find happiness in just having good neighbors.
Can’t wait for them to test why specific denominations have a positive causal impact on wellbeing over others. Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Southern Baptists, etc.
While we’re being snarky, should we talk about the people who are arbitrarily and capriciously removed from these communities during times when they need them most? Like women seeking divorce in abusive relationships while in a denomination that preaches absolute subservience to the male head of household?
Speaking as a gay dude, it doesn't mean you have to follow a mainstream religion to find spirituality, especially one which tells you that you are an evil person because of who you are. Personally I've taken bits of various eastern religious beliefs which now form my 'spirituality'.
It's weird, its like there is some part of our mind that requires something spiritual to fill it, and has been that way every since recorded history. People have always looked for something higher than themselves, whether is be a god or gods, or the idea of nature or the universe, or any matter of similar ideas. And filling that part of our minds with a belief in something, seems to put the mind at ease in some ways. A lot of medical literature I've read includes 3 parts of yourself that you need to take care of: mind, body and spirit. So I really do believe there is something behind it.
That study you linked does not establish a causal relationship. It may simply be that the sort of person who is able to extract well-being from church is the sort of person more likely to actually attend church with any regularity. It likewise does not address the possibility that depression itself might make one want to stop attending church.
>Millenial cynicism is so boring
Yeah, it's always Millennials who are in the wrong. Fuck us, right? It's all good, we're used to being the scapegoats for society's problems.
I'm a millennial and I feel like nearly all the discourse about who is (generationally) responsible for society's problems is aimed at the boomers. And the zoomers to a lesser extent, though that seems more of a prophecy about how they're going to ruin society. Jabs aimed at us millennials tend to be that we're cringe (or boring), which I can accept.
Not religious, but also not disputing that believers have lower rates of depression either.
Believing in a higher power has seemed to provide great comfort to a number of friends and family over the years. I went to a friend's father's funeral a while back, and I had to admit, the service, the way the community came together was moving, and it really made me question whether I should return to the church as an adult, even with my questions of faith.
He said something about moths and rust consuming matter and with that at the very least he pointed out quite clearly the source of our suffering in regards to the AI transformation
The problem is that humans evolved to be religious, and you can't just ignore that and get rid of it in a generation or two. It is in our brains and we have to live with it somehow. So from that perspective ... maybe Jesus does cure depression.
Humans most certainly did not evolve to be religious. We evolved to look for and, if necessary (to our minds), invent meanings behind things which sometimes have truly no meaning at all, i.e. the existence of existence itself. We also evolved to be fearful of the unknown, e.g. the experience of death and afterward. It seems quite simple to see how those two things resulted in our eventual invention of religion, but we did not simply evolve to be religious per se.
Except some of us consider ourselves to be quite evolved, not religious, AND absent of depression. Maybe depression (or the lack thereof) has nothing to do with religion at all.
I turn 39 this year and am just finding more and more ways to become irrelevant. I can’t be the only one so these stats make sense to me. Fortunately, Australia has a good start on what mental health care should look like and its subsidised (or at least a few sessions are).
I was made redundant in August and despite being a 20 year career vet who has done many different langs, I still can’t find a new job.
My skills as a developer are no longer required because the all knowing robot can (apparently) do what I need to do. I’ve heard multiple companies now using it to ship stuff all the way into production without any human intervention at all. This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel.
The side hustle I had of writing books to teach people development is over — they can just ask the robot instead. I was writing a new book about how developers can train up others, but have put that on hold (due to losing my job which was that thing, and because of AI)
I honestly don’t know what I’m supposed to do here to provide for my family.
I think most white-collar people have similar feelings. I certainly am, and many dev-friends and coworkers have confided such to me.
My software skills are now irrelevant. I've accepted that the omniscience robot is a better engineer than me. No clue what I'm going to do next, but I have to figure it out fast once my job disappears.
I wanted a family, but I'm relieved that I don't have one now. I can't imagine the stress and pressure of that with how weird everything is now. I'm nearing the end of the timeline for that anyway, being in my late 30s. Probably a blessing in disguise.
I have a some good hobbies that keeps me on my toes (physically, mentally) and a full social and family life fortunately. That's what fills my cup. I'm not stoked about tech anymore anyway.
I've been through a 6 month long unemployment. Got let go from a company (along with the majority of the dev team) which picked up AI like a shiny object thinking it could do everything.
Then I got hired to a company which have been pushing AI 100% for like a year, not at the expense of headcount, but responsibly as the N+1th productivity increasing tool, like what it is.
It's a really nice environment where keeping and cultivating great talent is not just one of the primary marketing slogans on the hiring page, but it actually feels like it while on the job.
My talent is nowhere near yours, so don't lose hope, keep applying.
I read your 'Leaving Tech' blog and it made me sad because it reflects a lot of what I'm feeling. Luckily I'm still employed, though it feels fairly tenuous at the moment
While I applaud Australia's initiatives, I am becoming more and more convinced that a lot of people are already in (or heading towards) situations that the mental healthcare field can do very little, if anything, to improve.
To all those reading this thread, suicide isn't the answer. I know you've heard this and it's not special coming from me.
We all heard it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and so many other quotes. I've lost a lot of people growing up to suicide and the impact it has on those who continue to live on that you love is traumatic.
The man who raised me like I was his son told my mother that he would never commit suicide. He had stage 4 cancer that eventually took his life on my 17th birthday. His reason for enduring through the pain was to teach me that suicide is never the answer because it hurts all those around you.
Although he passed away on my 17th birthday of his illness, he forever changed my life in so many ways. Each and every day I aim to be a better man because of how he loved me.
Please take a moment to utilize this time you have to change those around you. You don't need to create a massive company, be a CEO, have a career people admire, etc.. all you need to do is be someone that inspires others to improve like John did for me.
I solo founded and run a men's suicide prevention nonprofit organisation in the UK. It's early stage bootstrapped at the moment but I have long-term plans.
I've facilitated 200+ talking meetings at this organisation and another I was involved with previously. Anecdotally, the average attendee at the male-only meetings is ~45 years old, has some level of issues with personal and/or professional boundaries, has had suicidal ideation more than once, and has made plans for or attempted suicide more than once.
There is some form of survivorship bias in the above, but I get a lot of pride from our groups keeping men alive. We haven't lost anyone in 2 years.
It's a responsibility and fulfilling, extremes at both ends. The key thing is self-management, and knowing limits. I learned a lot from the ASIST course, and I retake the full two-day training every two years or so:
Ooof, not even that old here and I'm feeling that. Things are pretty bad all over. Gets hard to want to be around. AI took my job recently and I've been moved back to helpdesk and just awaiting further layoffs. There's not much fun in intellectual pursuits any longer as LLMs have taken it all. All my fun hobby projects are just jokes now as anyone with money can easily outdo me with an LLM. Sad times...
No pleasure really anymore, my hobbies were coding occasionally and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Recently I started rebuilding a custom d3d9 hook for an old game and it was really fun and I planned to release it to the community. But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
Try see if you can find some physical hobby that has nothing to do with computers.
Mine is gardening. With relatively little effort, I can grow a decent amount of foods, much of it interesting varieties that are not grown commercially anywhere. I really doubt that we're going to see affordable humanoid robots out-competing me in this hobby any time soon.
Do you not see a benefit in coding for the mental exercise and challenge?
Most hobbies are impractical... Machines can produce clothes much faster than a knitter, no chess player will beat the best computers, a boat can bring more fish to port in one trip than you can in a year, etc.
> and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
That's OK, you don't have to be the best at any one thing. The important thing about any hobby, be it programming, skateboarding, or playing the piano, is that you feel personal satisfaction in doing it, not in the reactions of people to your work. Your enjoyment of a hobby should never be based on whether or not people like it, or even whether or not they want to use the thing you created. If you feel that a project that you are working on could be summed up in a single prompt that can be given to an LLM, then your job is not to work on the project directly, but rather to find what makes what you are doing unique. It doesn't even have to be technically interesting or bring any new ideas to the table, just the fact that somebody has put in effort into making something (regardless of completion or quality) gives it value.
>Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Then it's not really a hobby, no? Sounds more like a weird competition.
>But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
That sounds more like a job, at least with your perspective.
>I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
That's a job, man. Even if you're not getting paid money for it, you're not really doing it for yourself.
The point is a bit moot cause it's the same difference: you can get joy from a "job" and AI making that job obsolete sucks regardless. But if that's what you think a hobby is, then you don't have an actual hobby.
We've thoroughly pathologized this aspect throughout history, but doing things that earn you societal status and respect from others is a essential for having a healthy psyche for many, possibly most people, men especially struggle when they don't have avenues to demonstrate skill and competence.
Doing things to share them with others is pretty normal in a hobby. You might be baking for friends and family or sewing clothes or whatever, and want to enjoy the recipients appreciation for it. If people don't accept your gifts, the satisfaction of it will go away, and the same is often true of small coding projects I think.
I wish I could take up gardening but alas I live in an apartment like most other people... I suppose you got me, I have no hobbies and it's just another reason to not want to be here. :) Everything is work and not much fun, is it?
This is a weird PoV - that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo.
Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
I mean, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic: hobbies via a community is still a hobby. There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
>that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo
Didn't say that.
>Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
Nope, those are not conclusions you can draw from what I said.
>hobbies via a community is still a hobby
Yup, don't disagree with that.
>There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
Never said that.
What I did say as that producing a product which is meant to be consumed by others and which offers you no joy if it isn't consumed isn't a hobby- it's a job. Money doesn't need to be exchanged for it to be a profit-seeking activity. And to be clear: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But what I am saying is that, fundamentally, AI can't make a proper hobby obsolete.
The OP is disheartened because his "hobby" is no longer relevant because AI can do his hobby better than him. Just take a step back and think about that: does it make any sense? Can you think of a reasonable example of a hobby where this dynamic can ever occur?
Like, AI has gotten pretty good at music. Does that mean everybody who was in a band for the fun of it all disbanded because AI can make music better than them? Of course not; they still enjoy making music. Now, a band who is trying to make money off of their efforts may be facing a different reality: if people are able to generate better music than what they can produce for way cheaper, then staying in a band for profit is a hard sell. But note that in both instances, these people (who are clearly operating within a community) are doing the same exact activity, but one set of people are doing it as a hobby while the other is doing it as a job.
And again, to be clear: I'm not saying the OP's feelings aren't valid. They wanted to produce something that others would find valuable, and AI made their efforts obsolete. That sucks, and they're clearly not alone. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that that is a hobby. And that's an important distinction, because the OP is claiming they don't have a hobby anymore and I'm claiming they never did. They should have a hobby- a proper hobby- because it's important for humans to have hobbies for their own well being.
I see what you're saying but I don't fully agree. Art is the obvious counterexample, like the poetry circles of old. The hobby was writing and sharing your poetry with peers. If no one was reading it, there would be much less joy in the production. That doesn't make it a job, it just makes it a social hobby.
The thing with that poster is that the output is not wholly art but also utility, so the AI could fully subsume that thing, if the consumers only care for the utility part. And software in general, qua art, is not an art that anyone but the author consumes, except for video games. So you're kind of right but also I think OP was using software as an artistic outlet through a utility output, which was neither a job nor is his current despair unfounded.
OP if you want to keep writing software for others you have to abandon the utility function and make art, such as games. That will fix your issue. And no, AI cannot make games as good as a human can.
If someone likes digging tunnels by hand, that's a hobby.
If someone is mad that tunneling companies make it hard for them to find "hand tunneling work", that's not a hobby. That's someone thinking their work is owed attention.
Go find a hobby that you like doing for yourself. Why do you think so many engineers turn to woodworking? It isn't because they think they're going to compete with Ikea.
A hobby is something you do for yourself. Whether it's code, or painting, or woodworking.... you don't care if someone is better or faster than you. Unless you really see the hobby as a potential business, in which case you might want to reevaluate because with LLMs it's possible for an individual to do more by himself than ever before.
Well, some hobbies are fun because you're doing something no one else has done before, or which is challenging to accomplish without a lot of investment in time and growing in personal skill. A lot of hobbies are fun because of the competition and because you get to be at the forefront of something. It's fun because we're all limited in our time and energy and choosing to spend time on something means you can do things that someone else who doesn't spend time on it can't. That feels good.
People who were in the demoscene took joy in learning how to make a computer do things no one had done before and push the hardware to its limits. That's not as meaningful if someone can achieve the same thing by prompting an LLM.
A lot of hobbies are fun because of the human challenge in creating the output and knowing it was only achievable because someone had to take time to create it. Having an LLM accomplish the same thing absolutely devalues the fun in the hobby. Hobbies aren't 100% just about accomplishing something for yourself, even though if you sway to much into doing it for validation or to compete with others it can lead to burnout and lack of enjoyment.
You can do a hobby for any reason. It doesnt have to be for yourself. He could enjoy programming but also enjoy contributing to the wider open source community. So it makes sense to feel bad when he sees another project popup and invalidate his work. If it was another person who'd worked hard and thought about the project he could at least take solace in chatting about their solutions but with AI its nothing. It just solves the problem and there is little to be gained from it.
Ah, well I do nothing for myself sir. I work most days of the week and time off is limited. My company doesn't really do vacations. I haven't had one in at least 3 years and hopefully I'll have the PTO soon but never the money!
I don't know if it's common but I generally don't like to be bad at my hobbies. I like it when I can do things well. I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
Not liking being bad at your hobbies is much different than not finding joy in them because people do them better than you. I work harder to be a better cook, it doesn't mean I'm in competition with people who cook better.
I keep wanting to say the same thing. In fact, how other people describe hobbies is why I don't like the term hobbies.
I think music is a good example of sometimes you need to not have fun to have fun. Practice isn't really fun, but if you can put up with it you can have a lot of fun. So you can say that the not fun parts are part of the fun parts because it's what gives you the payoff. But when people then go and send you a Suno generated song, and say it's better than yours, it is them devaluing the "not fun" parts you had to put up with. I've had people do similar things to code projects I've done. It's a real buzz kill.
I also really value when musicians critique my songs, even when I feel defensive about it. Because then it's not about them devaluing my time, it's about them helping me grow, and they know how it feels to go through that process.
Sure. But AI doesn't make you bad at hobbies. It just makes others better at it, and even that is a stretch.
>I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
And are you going to give up learning piano because now AI can just generate piano music better than anything you can ever produce? No? Then what you're doing is a proper hobby, which contrasts with the OP who feels their efforts are no worthless because AI can just do it better. That's not really a hobby; it's a job.
Hmm.. I meant to make my point in isolation from LLMs. I definitely don't feel that way about learning music.
I do kind of understand it when it comes to programming, though. Hobby-like side projects often felt like they had some utility down the line, even if not directly applied. It's fun to show others what you've accomplished, to show off, maybe land a job from being noticed, etc.
I'm sorry, but this is not realistic. Life is complex and involves many variables. You are right to engage with this question, but you are oversimplifying to the point of implying dishonesty, if I'm being frank (assuming you are not very neuro-divergent!).
There are your Paul Feyerabend s and there are your reddit atheists which the HN crowd tend towards, who simplify all complex relations in the world to Scientific, Testable, Linear logic. It may as well be as a result of the education system or the Industrial Revolution, but that is the prevalent logic in the world.
Unfortunately we do not live in a time of philosophy anymore
Not the author you're replying to but I don't understand this reply at all? What variables? What oversimplifying?
They simply said
> Why do you imagine yourself you be in competition with others while doing hobbies? Do you not find pleasure in the doing?
Which... I don't understand how that is oversimplifying. If your hobby is golf are you unable to enjoy golf because you're not as good as the pros? If your hobby is music can you not enjoy it because you aren't going to win a Grammy award?
If you enjoy programming or working on something an LLM can do... can't you just enjoy doing it without an LLM? Heck there are plenty of people that will probably seek it out because of how many people hate AI being used in programming.
It's realistic to want to be competitive. But as soon as your "hobby" becomes competitive, at least in this sense, it ceases to be a true hobby. It effectively just becomes work.
Nothin' wrong with the OP feeling disheartened by AI taking away his "hobby"/job, but AI will never be able to take away a "true" hobby because a "true" hobby is something where such external factors are irrelevant.
You'll notice that people who lift weights, run marathons, maintain a garden, tinker with models, etc., are effectively immune to AI. An AI won't lift your weights for you or tend to your garden for you. Maybe one day it could technically do that, but it doesn't matter, because you simply wouldn't have it do that for you. And it wouldn't matter if AI is doing that for others, because you're not competing with others. You're doing it for yourself.
I exercise/lift weights, and you should too. My reps/effort/weight/PRs are a joke. I'm ~50% percentile on strengthlevel.com despite really fucking trying for ~6yrs now.
Many people are better than me at the EXACT SAME THING that I'm trying, at my bodyweight/age/sex. It doesn't discourage me. There is always room to improve. I track every workout, go to RPE 8-9, and try to do progressive overload. Seeing the numbers go up helps. I know it won't continue into infinity, especially as the decades go on... but yknow, I'm building a mentality here, not just a body. And when the weights go down, I'll be in the correct mental space for it.
I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting. I'd rather be doing ANYTHING else. But I do it anyway. I think it teaches me things about life.
The only true goal is to grow and be better than yesterday. Effort is the reward.
That's not the population. It is the average among other weightlifters which is where you would expect to be. Most of the population can't do a pull up.
It helps to know how achy the body gets without it. In my case, the back pain I had from desk work is entirely gone now. If you focus on the form rather than reps and getting through it, paired with some good music, you can reach a focus state. There are off days of course, but I'm surprised that I enjoy it much more than I used to, where my motivation dropped off quickly due to being externally motivated (visible gains). Now it's kind of cool to just see your ability change over time, better balance, capability to do more advanced exercises, etc.
Hehe yeah. Perhaps I exaggerate with "I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting." More precisely, I never _look forward_ to a workout.
I don't hate every squat. In fact, it's (I can't believe I'm saying this) somewhat satisfying in the moment whenever I do decide to go RIR=0. I'm wiped, but like, in a "hell yeah I did that" way.
But starting a session? I'm still as reticent as I was on day 1 lol. Maybe someday I'll pick up a sport or something as the others suggest, but I love programming too much to pick up other hobbies >_>
Hear hear! It took me a bit but I've reached the point where I'm enjoying just "growing". I think we grew up in a world that molded us to compete, and to judge ourselves based on others, but I think with AI we're going to reach a point where our hobbies are going to be just seeing what we can accomplish for ourselves.
I have multiple herniated discs in my back so working out isn't possible. The V.A. wouldn't help with it either... But thanks for the suggestion! I'll be going the way of the people in the article so ya'll enjoy what you got! Many of us have nothing. :)
Perhaps my advice was too narrow/specific to my situation. If you can't deadlift, then don't. But there are many other things you can do, as the other commenters have suggested.
But if you're in the mentality of _not wanting_ to have anything, then all the advice in the world will bounce off you.
My suggestion, then, is to work on that mentality. Do something to get you anything, to get you out of that "Many of us have nothing" mindset. Build momentum. Physically doing something is often what it takes to break a mental barrier. The mind spirals and digs a hole, especially at night. But you get to participate in life/society/people during the day, which is why doing bodily things affects the mind and can break its loops.
You won't "win" on the first attempt. But you'll make progress. And the real win-condition is to keep playing.
The first step is always the hardest. I wish you the best.
Try doing some sports as well, I do weightlifting, but I do bouldering as well with friends, it is not only fun it also develops your strength in a kind of complementary way to lifting (also increases you stats on balance and other related stuff)
50th percentile on there is pretty strong! I've also lifted for around six years and I'm very light so my raw numbers are terrible but I'm still proud of them
Most of my friends from high school and college are dead from random cancers, or drugs, or both.
I used to love skimming the new preprints on arXiv in the morning but now the signal is buried LLM drivel.
The one hobby I have that is kinda LLM-proof for now is speedrunning. Tool-assisted speedruns have always had their own categories for decades, and even if the LLMs or their descendants are used for routing or glitch hunting there’s still an element of human execution.
I like JRPGs from the early 2000s. I haven’t settled on one that I like enough to specialize in yet. It’s a bit of a time commitment, as you can imagine.
1. How utterly dogshit the vast majority of code is.
2. How utterly dogshit some of the most important or famous products and services are under the hood.
So what if LLMs can do something better? Our entire field and industry has been built on 'good enough'. God knows how many programming 'masterpieces' are on Github with 0 stars and 0 users.
I am more excited about programming by hand now more than ever. While I do not know what the future has in store for us in terms of careers, I still think I will always program by hand for fun just because I enjoy the feel of the flow-state/getting lost in something.
The things that motive me to stick around are holding the people ruining this world to account, documenting it and trying to thwart their efforts, a curiosity in seeing just how bad the climate crisis gets (how do we react, can it wake us from our stupor), and a desire to learn and help others (whether volunteering or just life advice). An absurdist lens helps provide some levity and not take things so seriously.
I had to step back from my career to focus on a mobility issue and at this point I don't know if the job path will continue to be there or even if I care. I'm focusing on small pleasures for now - cup of tea, exercise, peace and quiet. Music and film help provide a sense of meaning and catharsis.
I would have guessed middle-aged men and women, not just men. I think the reason is being the sandwiched generation.
Most of us had/are having kids late. Now our parents are old/getting old and in need of our support. Along with that, parenting expectations have never been higher. So between shuttling kids from one thing to another all week, and taking parents to medical and other appointments, there isn’t much time or energy left to enjoy anything. It’s exhausting.
Combine that with someone already depressed, and any unfortunate trigger could push them over the edge. It’s partly anecdotal and some of what I’ve observed.
Thanks for this comment, because I think it's probably the only comment I've read where the hypothesis at least matches what is seen in the graph in the article, as it's really only men ages 45-64 who have seen a recent rise. Rates for younger men 25-44 have held steady for about the past 20 years and are significantly down since the mid 90s and early 00s. And yes, this is an all time high for men 45-64, but that's following a large dip for this age group around 95-2005, and the current rate is only slightly above where it was in 1980. And rates are significantly down compared to rates 30 years ago for men older than 65.
Middle aged family men are kinda invisible. The government only sees them when it needs taxation. Kids only see them when they need money. His wife ignores him too, or rather, they ignore each other as roommates.
They can’t escape because all those legal and moral responsibilities. They have to wait patiently until retirement —- if their hearts allow them to live that long.
I'm 40 and am accepting I will be single forever. I'm in shape / constantly lifting weights, dress well, work hard on maintaining a good attitude, and am financially stable etc. But not a great face, and extremely skinny (Think Oppenheimer or Bin Laden), am not funny or charismatic, and am not into dogs. Dating is a kick in the butt. Women don't "Feel the spark"
DON'T DO ONLINE DATING. Online dating has wrecked mating except for the most attractive 5%. Online dating is mostly a looks competition as first step. And you are saying you don't have the looks to win that game, so you need to play a different type of mating game.
Go to meetups instead via meetup.com and also look for local group activities happening on EventBrite - don't make finding a partner the focus or even the objective - go to a ton of meetups doing the things you love doing.
People form relationships doing common interests and having shared experiences. Have shared experiences with people and take finding a partner off the agenda - just enjoy the company of others. You never know what might happen but don't go looking for it.
I can tell you this for sure - many women are looking for a partner of character - someone kind who actually wishes to engage in relationship - a genuine person - and if time is taken to form relationship well in advance of the "will you be my girlfriend" pressure, then how you look is very often just not an issue. Have you noticed how when you get to know someone you see their character as much as their outward appearance? You might need to let people learn who you are gently and over time.
As for being charismatic or funny, as Oscar Wilde said: Be yourself - everyone else is taken.
I have a number of family and friends who met online through video games or through online matchmaking websites (and one even through a dating app, starts with an H).
Successful, long term, loving and happy relationships. Not top 5% most attractive people. Mostly nerds, some overweight, some not.
The best thing you do is to just grow your network until you find someone you like.
Whenever I go out, I always collect phone numbers and contacts if I can.
Before you know it, you have 100s of people on your phone. Befriending women is also excellent, they can introduce you to other women if they feel like you are worthy!
A helpful thought for me was that literally everyone could reject you, except one person, and that's all you need is just that one person. Also along with that principle, maybe 99% of people actually aren't a good match for me, so if I mostly don't "click" with other people, that's totally fine — I don't know if I would want to be with 99% of possible people myself even if they were interested in me. It's just about finding the right kind of person that's similar to you. People with unique attributes may find someone else with the same unique attributes, or the other person may possess unique attributes that might somehow be a good fit for your unique attributes.
Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
If you don't know what to do, try to get involved with helping others in some way. It can be rewarding and give you a broader perspective on life.
> Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
I can confirm that this is how I am generally happy in life as a single. Underrated advice.
I heard that before when I just started dating. I would say don't worry about the outcome (especially pertaining to one person - you know close to nothing about them early on anyway), just try to connect with people. In my case, it would've helped calm my nerves, which were a hindrance. I've been with my partner for 8 years. A given outcome is never preordained and you don't need everyone to like you, just the one that you click with if you don't let rejection discourage you.
being funny and charismatic are something it is possible to practice, same as lifting weights. From what you say, sounds like a high leverage thing to look into
How are you extremely skinny? Do you have a digestive issue or something?
I struggled with weight gain for many years due to crippling IBS but I found some relief while bulking from a certain probiotic. (Got lucky - dozens of things I tried including fodmap, etc. never worked. That said, the probiotic only helps - not solves... and doesn't solve my absorption issues)
Surgery, steroids, and a serious bulk are in order if you're serious.
Great question! No medically diagosed/diagnosable condition for better or for worse; someone's got to represent the 3σ end of the normal distribution right?
I can make the pounds go up or down in a few weeks by eating more or less, but it goes mostly to the gut (Skinny fat = probably the worst look), and just enough to pad the arm muscles so it looks like I've never been to the gym in my life! Lately have just been embracing it and staying lean (Looks like 12% maybe?) while working out as much as I can stand.
I was about to do the steroids... (low dose test) I suspect that would genuinely fix it. But when I got the blood test back, test was smack in the middle of the normal range! So would have to shop around a bit, and trying not to lose my hair. But may still do it. A bulk counter-intuitively is not the move because it would just put me back in skinny-fat land.
I am funny and at least somewhat charismatic but I'm gay and gay dating is simply broken. Both online and physical places focus on quick, cheap, sexual encounters. Meeting dudes outside of gay spaces results in max 5% chance that dude is also gay, which is a pathetic thing to be working with. I'm really not convinced that this life is worth living.
The most terrifying realization is that I've already spent pretty much half of my life yearning for love and not getting it. Even if I magically get married soon, it'll feel like a consolation prize.
That is a great anecdote/perspective to hear, although depressing. My working model was that gay dating is completely different from straight dating; the dynamics which I lament don't apply, but... different from a bad scenario doesn't mean a good one, which I think is going on!
It's interesting to see this on the HN frontpage alongside an article about how American's social activity has steeply declined over the last 30 years [1]. To me these are very much related. We have less and less community than ever.
Then, at the same time, other aspects of our lives -- family raising and career -- are trickier than ever. Family raising these days takes more time than ever [2] (which admittedly is good and bad). Career growth in the era of stagnant wages has been tough for many fields of work, and AI threatens many of the remaining ones.
It's hard to feel fulfilled these days: our social lives are poor, and we're constantly busy doing things that don't necessarily help us get ahead.
44, unemployed since July, on a cross country train trip trying to decide if it is worth going on. Stood on a bridge a bit too long the other day just wondering what the point is.
It is over for a lot of us in IT. It isn't going to get better, it is going to get worse very quickly. Rather than tell myself a convenient lie, I'd rather try to figure out why to keep living in a world like this.
Anyone going through the same thing, I hope you find something worth living for.
My older brother killed himself nearly 20 years ago at the age of 50. I don't think he ever considered himself successful. He had financial problems, alcoholism, and was lonely without any lasting relationships. When his resources were exhausted he just ended his life. There was nothing in the estate of value since his assets, such as they were, were less than tax liability he had accumulated. The owner of the house he had been renting tried to get us siblings to pay for repairs and cost of disposal, but we demurred (and told the court we'd be happy if that owner was named executor; they declined the honor.) I think his car just disappeared off the street one day, probably towed to an abandoned car lot and auctioned. At least the state recouped some of the owed taxes that way.
I am not much of a gamer and sure as hell don't keep up with many people that I gamed with 20 years ago but there was one guy that I would talk with ever few years. I talked with him and a few months later he was gone. I don't know why his suicide hit me so hard. Maybe because I connect him to a different phase of my life. Maybe because he was the guy who was the life of chat. I don't know.
What I do know is that I wish he could have known how many people would miss him.
I’m college educated, have a successful career doing things that I enjoy to a decent degree, have a wonderful house, wife and kid. If you showed my life to my younger self and asked “would you take this life?” I would have answered every single time wholeheartedly “yes! I’m living the dream!”
But I only recently truly accepted that the life I am living (and have created for myself and family) is actually the dream. We so often miss the greatest times in our lives because we are too focused on the unknowns of the future.
This rings true for me - I wish I could go back and tell my younger self not to prevaricate over trivialities. Maybe it's rose colored glasses but those times feel very idyllic otherwise.
The graph shows that suicides overall are down from 30 years ago, while the same cohort that was higher in 1985-2005 (25-44) is now higher in 2005-2025 (45-64). Perhaps there is something about the generation more than the situation or the age of the individual.
I am 43 and only in the last few years have things turned better. I want to say that life is tough for different people from different parts of the world. For various reasons. But overall we have a set of systems that do not care.
The lack of friendship, care, love cannot be eased with money. I used to be crazy about startups. I used to want to live in New York (I am from Kolkata). I had a great run in my twenties but I crashed many years ago. Living in Germany helped a lot. I realized I was not loved or cared for. By myself mostly.
My parents love me but my dad has mental health issues which took a really bad toll on my childhood and teen years. I swept away the need for a love and care and replaced it with money. Many of us are doing this. The system needs most of us to slave. Now, I have been living the village life for about 6 years. I moved my parents as well. We have farms. I still write software, well, mostly generate them with LLMs.
There is a sense of purpose here that I started to feel. Over these last years, I have become more calm than I ever was. Happier, in a way I notice, every day. With less money than I ever had. Life is not about lots of achievements. We need meaning, love, purpose, care, friendships. We need slows walks, flowing water, walk in the rain, healthy food with zero labels. We need to grow our crops, care for animals, raise kids as a village.
I know I am typing this on a computer. But I no longer work for any tech company. I have a small consultancy client. I live as per a typical countryside routine. Most of my (whatever little savings) money is now invested in our farms where I work a few hours everyday, on time. Animals, dirt, mud, poop, crops, cleaning. All of it. Connected to how life is supposed to be. I used to hate glass buildings, still do.
Concrete, glass and everything about artificial spaces makes me sick. I am just one person, I do not have some research paper. But I know how I feel today vs a decade ago. Hope it helps.
I am not suicidal and I am lucky to have loving people who I also love around. That said, with all the rapid changes in the software engineering industry and in life in general, I sometimes wonder what I am doing with my life and why.
It's like plenty of things are happening by inertia, but none of them bring any joy or make lots of sense. In such moments, I really envy people who have the courage to work on something they truly believe in. I have quite a few people to take care of, which requires financial resources, so I am not there yet.
Makes a lot of sense to me. If you're young and things aren't going so well then at least you can have hope that you'll be able to turn it around. You have time on your side. That all goes away when you start to get to middle age. You're locked in by your earlier choices.
Now I'm here staring at AI with the reality that if it makes my skills irrelevant I'll have no fallback, and I'll be at an age where reskilling is extremely hard and I'm still nowhere close to retiring.
I see this a lot speaking to friends and just in general online discourse. Too much news and social media. Perhaps it will all go to shit. AI is definitely changing the entire world, our industry being the first on the chopping block (maybe).
But, what can you do. There's always been injustice in the world. You just never used to hear about it 24/7/365.
Now you wake up and read about it on the little screen, later you see it on the big screen, talk about it at work, then go to bed and read about it on the little screen again. I have friends who can't even talk to me for 30 minutes without just bringing the entire mood down with doomerism.
Idk, I just do sports, work and spend time with whoever I can in whatever little free time I have left over. I had to forcibly block every news site and social media via an app otherwise I'd get addicted again and become a cynic. Reddit is by far the worst for me, insta is 2nd.
Unlike 95% of people I speak to I actually love my life and enjoy my work, and just hope that AI doesn't steal that from me.
Growing up as a first generation immigrant in a country with some of the worst inequality in the world taught me to just ignore everything but what you need to do.
This is something I sometimes feel guilty about now that I have a comfortable life. But, I feel like trading that ignorance for constant awareness just leads to anxiety and guilt and is a poor trade I don't have to make.
Edit: also this is just 1 factor. There are other factors like actual poverty, loneliness etc. I don't meant to put forth the idea that it's purely the 24 hour news cycle and social media that's to blame, just 1 aspect I see most often in my life.
In my circle, I've objectively had both the best and the worst life. I can tell when people are thinking about suicide because they reach out to find out if I've done myself in yet lol.
For them, I keep going. I think because both the best and worst times in my life were roughly due to my own decisions, I always have the idea that I will get back to the good times.
There have been plenty of periods in history with millenarian challenges, but I don't think there has been a period in history with so many different existential threats and uncertainties happening at the same time.
Between climate change, AI, economic instability, political catastrophes, various actual and impending wars, social media bot farms and trad media content farms, and entire industries that exist to lie about what's happening and pressure everyone to work and consume and live an ideal lifestyle with ideal productive values - there's quite a lot going on.
I think part of the problem in that instance, might be "success" being necessary but not sufficient for "surviving and thriving"; and unfortunately sometimes that isn't explained along the way to even people who become conventionally successful (but, perhaps we can try to improve an awareness of the issue going forward for future gens)
I believe every death is unique and not a statistic.
However, since the article is about "men" and "suicide". There is substantial evidence that suggest women (especially young girls) attempt suicide more than men... while men are are more likely to die from a suicide [1]
Does gender have a role in suicide? Maybe. But I would hesitate to generalize too much.
[1] I asked chatgpt to back up my claims. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
My understanding is that the disparity in "successful" suicides is because women tend to choose methods that can be reversed if you catch them quickly enough (like poison), while men tend to choose violent methods that are over quickly (like self inflicted gunshots).
This article is from the UK, where firearms only account for 2.5% of completed suicides. In both the US and the UK, men are generally more likely to succeed even after accounting for their chosen method, e.g. they take larger overdoses within the same drug class:
Before everyone jumps in with their favorite ad-hoc reason, take a look at the graph first. The headline is technically true, but barely. For the 45-64 age group, the suicide rate is barely different than it was in 2012 and 2018, and about the same as it was in 1985 (24 vs 22-23 per 100k.) Seems like all age groups have held steady (10-24 25-44 and 75+) or trended up a bit (45-64 and 64-75) since the early 2000's, after dipping from the 1980s.
I am in my late 40's and I am struggling more than I ever have in my entire life. I have a great marriage and 3 children and I have a good job with good income. I have nothing to be unhappy about.
And yet my children are grown now and mostly gone. I feel a profound sense of loss.
I feel like I'm entering the age where I'm a prime candidate for any myriad of diseases and I get so anxious every time I get a symptom. I go to the Dr. a lot. I went to the ER twice every year in the past 3 years. Ironically, its occurred to me that if I do have something terminal, I don't have to go on like this. And I like the thought of that. I'm both terrified of death and also really looking forward to it.
I used to enjoy my work, but AI has made it so that I just kind of show up and ask it for things. Anyone could do what I do. There's no sense of accomplishment in anything.
The worst thing about this is that I have every reason to be the happiest person here. So the fact that I feel the way that I do actually makes me a pretty bad person and that makes the whole thing feel a whole lot worse.
Man this is for real. I’m 46 and I tell my therapist and my friends that I’m not suicidal but like… can we wrap this shit up already? (A tasteless joke stolen from Tom Segura)
I have been meditating on WHY I feel this way. On paper things are pretty good. I’m married. I have a job that is safe for now. I have kids. Two dogs. A house. Two cars.
But I feel really lonely and unseen and like I am a disappointment to everybody including myself. Like it makes sense I’m unseen because I’m unexceptional.
So I’ve done some things that have helped a little including scheduling lunches with friends and coworkers, more frequent date nights (especially double date nights), working out (setting and achieving even small pointless goals like mile time, distance, weight lifted, etc really helps).
All of that and it feels like I’m bailing water out of a sinking ship. It is barely enough to stay afloat and heaven help me if I skip a day or make a mistake…
It is hard to imagine doing this for another 30 years…
I used to think Soma was one of the more disturbing ideas in Brave New World. These days, I understand the temptation a little better.
As I’ve reached middle age I’ve realized that controlling my suffering keeps me grounded.
The suffering will come out no matter what everyday for me personally no matter how comfortable the day is.
For years now I force it out with intention every day. I push to a discomfort for an hour or more a day usually doing some aerobic activity.
When my body starts failing as I get older I’ll need to explore other options but this is where I am now.
Surprisingly my brain has been rewired over the years to look forward to this controlled suffering and counterintuitively it’s made all of life much more enjoyable.
It can be scary and hard to approach, but I would think you're not unexceptional or unimportant to your loved ones. Maybe you should talk to your wife about this at some point? It sounds like you're starting on this with date nights too which does seem good.
I hope you can find something that helps you feel like you're not just treading water, though.
Yeah, or that it is easier to identify the slog with the hindsight of middle age?
I'm not a Buddhist, but because of the stressors of my previous career I sometimes joke that I accidentally recreated the fundamental tenets of Buddhism in order to not wash out. One of the things I've come to realize is that the slog feeling you describe is something like the concept of 'samsara' or "cycle of aimless drifting, wandering or mundane existence" per the smarter people that edited the Wikipedia article. But that it's still possible to find meaning and satisfaction within this paradigm.
It’s so apt that you mention it life feeling sisyphean. I was just feeling that way while walking the dogs yesterday.
Maybe another tool would be to try to mix it up more… so each day feels different.
Especially at work where we have always been busy but lately there is no break, no time for modernization or learning or technical debt, we just move from one epic to the next epic, no fanfare, no launch parties. Just each of us at home working alone.
I had a friend who transitioned and it was such a delight to witness the transformion. Before they were the most flaky of friends, always flitting from on thing to the next, not stable, couldn't hold a job or hobby together for very long. Then they finally transitioned and my god the difference was night and say. They're stable now, they're reliable they're just fun to be around. They've finished a second degree and have held the same job for eight years now.
It's crazy how much not being at home in their body disrupted every part of their life
"etc" is doing a lot of work there; what in your view would constitute success here - something that would allow us to say "we did it, we now have the technology to freely change our sex at will"?
It depends on how you define sex. Hormones cover most expressions from chromosomes already. Skull reconstruction could be better? Maybe some way to really rework skeletons and adjust height and hips or shoulders? But that's more on the cosmetic end.
Or if you want at will, it would be good to have some way to radically speed up changes. You're still looking at 3-8 years for some things.
Late 40s here, on antidepressants for the anxiety side more than depression.
I can totally see why this is highest in my demographic.
An underlying cause is quiet desperation, there are elements of failure in ones' own life, perhaps pressure caused deliberately by others as they step on you to get to the top. Perhaps it's the fact you start to notice death, your parents, family, and friends. You also see the beginning of your own aged based health decline.
Until society can support genx and older with their goals at this age, instead of telling them to get talking in men's groups, or saying it's alright to show emotions to a generation that grew up without this culture, this will probably continue.
I don't have an answer to fix it, but what I do feel would help is if was treated as a high risk stage of life without stigma. So 45+ men or menopausal women, can take time off to adjust, spend more time with family and friends, and it be treated as normal process, like a sabbatical or maternity leave or just a wind down from society like partial retirement.
This will never happen obviously because it means as a society we have to have a better welfare state and drop the ingrained idea that if you're not working you're a problem (not working is NOT the same as not contributing or benefiting to society, but people conflate this).
Perhaps the AI age will force us to fix that due to mass unemployment, the way COVID kick started remote working.
I am early fifties, and due to some sort of intrusive thoughts OCD-ish variant of ADHD, I have probably thought about suicide 25,000 times in the last ten years (not an overestimate). It is a several-times-per-day thing, if it’s not all day. Sometimes only an intrusive flicker, sometimes very much not. I have spent the last year or two dealing with burnout thinking about it regularly in depth; usually not for now, but for maybe ten years time when I believe it will be necessary.
I am a single man with no dependents who is struggling to work due to burnout, and I perceive that we are really not far off a world where young people will take seriously the idea that older people like me have had our time. I do not expect to be able to work for much longer because why would they let us keep our jobs or get new ones when we are taking away theirs? What can we teach them when we have built the tools that will destroy their livelihoods and wrecked the environment in which they live? Why should they listen to us at all?
Leaving a bit early may be the morally responsible thing for me to do. Understanding that living until I am dependent on care from the young is not going to be a good time when we are a despicable, despised generation, it’s an oddly liberating thought.
The thing is, someone that perceives these problems for young people is someone that should stick around and keep doing what they do to fix it.
You are the exact opposite of the people that need to leave early. Stick around and wait for when we come out the other side. I think these kids are going to figure it out, with our help.
We are not coming out the other side if we are not prepared to relinquish power (and wealth) to the young; can you imagine Gen X ever doing that? Look at who our “tech titans” are. Look at who we gave power to. Our most significant accomplishment is the PayPal Mafia; we funded and empowered all the worst ideas of millennials.
(Granted, millennials have to reckon with the AI CEOs being theirs, technically.)
I wrote an article about youth mental health for my substack recently that touched on this. The suicide rate for the 50-59 demographic is far higher than the general population, but it collapses once you hit retirement age. If I had to guess, social supports for seniors plays a role.
I wrote this about overcoming the suicidal urge, what I learned beating an “incurable” diagnosis without meds, and how it’s informed my coaching of some of the most successful unicorn founders in history.
Most people that age right now have no idea where they are going or where they will end up. And not even in their delusions can they pretend the world will somehow magically care about them in another 30 years.
Personally I have given up on hoping for a nice planned and well executed life up through retirement. My own skill set just isn't valued enough by the markets to set myself up separated from the festering human pits. Im just going to go for as long as I can just to see how things go at this point. I always did enjoy thrillers and tragedies, it sucks to be in one but it is better than being in nothing at all. And if the world just keeps getting crazier, maybe ill just join them in being crazy and maybe hopefully go out with a bang near the end.
Back when we were in high school we were aiming to do the least amount of work to get through the year and spend the rest of the time hanging out with our mates.
A big part of our fault is also that we accept to get dragged by women into a territory that is not ours which is made up of large amount of introspection, extremely fine margins between good times and awful times and walking on eggshells with regards to social cues , the avoidance of social faux passes, planning years and years into the future down to the smallest detail .
That's the perfect recipe for depression for guys
We should go back to the basics and hangout with our mates trying to do the least amount of work as possible, play sports, banter with each other, take everything much less seriously and when we feel the need to have sex shoot for ONS or visit escorts or prostitutes and then go back to our mates.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure from my understanding of human history and primate evolution that "long-term sexual/romantic partner" is, in fact, one of the basics.
I had an assumption that most of human history, marriage was more of an arranged marriage thing. With a lot of "women being treated as property", "heirs required for transfer of wealth", etc notation.
And there were also societies that were polyamorous in nature?
We are in a new world now, there is no need to force traditions (or worse yet, false traditions) that frankly doesn't seem to work anymore
Sucks when friends dies. Cancer, accidents and so on is just terrible, but suicide really sucks. One of my old friends ended his life a couple of years ago. It really hit me.
She said: “The evidence is clear that successive governments have failed to deliver on their promise to reduce suicide rates and make suicide prevention a priority. Today must act as a wake up call. The current approach is not working; we need meaningful action and proper funding if lives are to be saved.”
I understand the urge to do something on a large scale, but immediately pivoting to "the government" to solve personal mental health crises seems like a terrible idea.
This was a tough article for me. I'm only alive because I have to be. I have one family member left in poor health, and they depend on me, but when they are gone, I don't really see the point of sticking around. I am simply sticking around for them.
The last thing I will do is die alone, or worse, confined to a nursing home, abused by underpaid staff. Yes: I have tried over 15 medication's, therapy, you name it. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that accepting that my life has an end, and they I will make that decision to end it, has been comforting. I feel like it's the only, perhaps last control, I might ever have
At the end of the day we (men) are the ones expected to provide, to win over the women, to keep the marriage from falling apart, to keep the kids safe. And at any point we fail in our career or one of these things we are left staring into the abyss with no one to help us but ourselves. This is why I reject a lot of liberal views. Even when we tried equality, all we did was take away power from the man that is still expected to do everything.
I’m bored of how shocked people are about this. It’s been going on decades now. Think of all the great and/or famous men that have killed themselves in the last 60 years. It stacks up quick. No one cares.
To anyone with a degree not in software, you can pivot to a hands-on job. I'm a technician for factory equipment. AI is not replacing me for a long time.
I'm an absolute doofus in the physical realm. No hand eye coordination of any kind. No common sense. No social skills or ability to read and understand humans.
In any other era I would have been a useless drain on society and yet I happened by an incredible stroke of luck to be born at a time when the few skills I do have perfectly aligned with a career niche. It's been a good few decades. Now I just go back to being a useless nobody but at least I have my memories and my investments.
I'm staring down the barrel of this particular prospect lately. I struggled through my twenties living with family until I finally managed to get my bachelor's degree and a job with a really solid company/team/product line. That silo of the business was then sold off to private equity, and it was fine for a while, but now the owners have been ensorcelled by the song of a C-list "rock star CEO" who has no respect for the team or the product line and very definitely has no sense of where the inertia lies when he keeps jerking the steering wheel of this particular vehicle. It's fucking exhausting to have to hold my tongue in meetings when I so badly want to say "it's late because you decided to delay it when it was about to be done, and then a couple months later you decided that it was urgent and had to be done ASAP, and then you decided to reassign staff to an initiative that you just made up with no actual product definition. But that would get me fired.
Remember, class, because this will be on the test: capitalism is the superior economic system because it elevates people who allocate capital efficiently. Just don't ever look too closely at the input and output functions of any such definition of "efficiency" (hint: they conveniently tend to elevate people who are skilled at flattering capital owners).
After having failed romantically one too many times and having an average dev job AI will probably take from me, that won't allow me to FIRE for 6 more years even if I can keep it, life's not fun for me at 35 already, how will it be at 55, all wrinkled up, frail, probably cancer stricken and with no future potential left?
Less than 10% of 55 year old men have ever had cancer in their life. And many of them were diagnosed before 35. So if you don't already have cancer, your odds are much less than 10% that you'll have cancer by 55.
And if you're wrinkled and frail at 55 years old then that's your own fault. Put on some sunscreen and go for a bike ride.
Seriously,look at the age at which people run for president. We got a guy whose been living his best life by stealing from the US public in his late 70s. 50 is the new 30 after all
You're talking about FIRE and at the same time griping. Everyone has their own disappointment to deal with in life, but you might consider yourself privileged if you're able to retire at all, let alone retire early in your 40s.
We live in a winner-takes-all world. Either you are compounding success, or you are compounding failure. Middle-age is when all potential has been spent and where you are is essentially where you will be until you die. Some middle aged men are billionaires with access to nearly anything they could want. Others have seen only repeated failures, accelerated by an economy that doesn't reward anyone but the most nimble, intelligent, or sociopathic.
Just got “over the hill” here. It’s…complicated, but not at all surprising on the whole.
My friends who are older are pessimistic as fuck. Several have been unemployed for lengthy stretches due to ageism in American hiring practices, which has resulted in their life crumbling around them as they lack the resources for basic upkeep anymore. I see that and shudder for myself, wondering if we’ll finally get this sorted before I hit my 50s or if this is just going to be a shitty fucking thing for the foreseeable future.
Social activity is hard for middle-aged men. We spend several hours a day commuting to and from work, which eats into our social budgets. Hard to host dinners, attend game nights, or go on dates when 80% of your day is spoken for work alone in some capacity (preparing for, getting to, performing, commuting home), which leaves us isolated. Most of our peers have paired off, so they have a stronger support structure - yet they too disappear at alarming rates.
At every conceivable intersection for the past fifty years, we’ve chosen to make life more hostile and less comfortable. I’m tired of feigning surprise at what, at least to me and my circles, is so sickeningly obvious.
This. And also commutes were radically shorter than they are today, with more commuter services in many smaller cities than exist today.
We shifted from a sole-provider/homemaker model of couples to a dual-income-required model, at the same time our choices on car dependency and suburban sprawl came back to bite us in the ass. The working from home era was great for socializing because we could agree on small group nights if we were all feeling well, knowing we didn’t have huge commutes ahead of us after work and with the extra money in our pockets from lowered work costs; RTO mandates killed that again, as did the sudden jump in real estate costs, inflation, and stagnating wages in the face of AI investment.
That’s just the average, too. For edge cases like me in unorthodox households or living arrangements, it’s even harder.
Sometimes I think joining a cult wouldn’t be too bad right about now. Hear me out: a bunch of people pool money to buy a massive amount of land somewhere and then building everything they need by hand: homes, farms, etc. and everyone has a strong sense of community from daily interaction and shared purpose, with regular rituals to keep a sense of stability. If we must work by manual labor, it is more satisfying to work to benefit those around you than for increasingly worthless dollars. No smartphones or thinking machines allowed.
I've had this thought many times, though a big part of a cult is like being employed: they let you be in the cult because they can pay you less than what you generate for them.
Yes because when you are struggling to take care of yourself, piling on vet bills and food and more responsibility, and less social time will really help.
Worrying over another being you are responsible for and thinking less about yourself and your own situation...just might help with depression I would think.
And nothing increases the desire for other people to be sociable with you than walking a dog.
I love my dog but absent my partner's desires, I don't think I would've taken it on. The cost, attention, potential behavioral issues, the prospect of losing them eventually are not for everyone.
I'm working on this actually. I had a dog for 12 years and she really kept me going. Saved me. But she died a couple years ago, literally the day after one of my parents, and it's been tough. But I'm really thinking about getting another dog; I really want to get another dog.
Dear HN, please stop posts like this in making to the top page. This actually normalizes the idea of suicide even with people not thinking about it. I don’t remember the book but it has been discussed a lot in psychological aspects of these news articles influencing the behaviour in them.
I am 36 and I have been thinking about suicide a tiny bit lately. But I will share my perspective with you, hopefully to draw a picture how different circumstances can be. I live in Ukraine and my optionality in life collapsed the day the war started. I had a good life, good income and traveled a lot. I used to dream of a career in big tech and life in different countries just to give it a taste. Now I am not able to leave the country because I am a male of conscription age. My city is being attacked by drones daily, and ballistic rockets a few times a month. Witnessing your country getting wrecked with rockets and drones is hell of an experience. Businesses, electricity plants, infrastructure, gas stations becoming rubble. There is also little hope in a resolution of this soon. I have to work on a job which provides a reservation from military service if I don’t want to fight, otherwise I will be picked up on the street to join the military.
I have it so much better than a lot of my countrymen, but holy shit does this suck and it is not getting better anytime soon. The hopelessness gets you.
Software engineering is one of my last remaining pillars of life remaining more or less intact. At least I get to write some code and make computers do things.
Life is a strange thing.
18. same ass of a country (to outsiders, have a look at all the countless debacles concerning corruption to understand why "ass"), except that I have 7 mostly worry-free years left to live and the market for juniors (and thus, me) is closed. if I get drafted, I'm waiting out for an opportunity to shoot my head.
honestly, having a decently paying blue-collar job made me think whether tech is worth it at all, given that I'll lose all the extra benefits (from canteen to proper bomb shelter to gym to commute) and cut my already tight paycheck by 20-25%. for what? for "tech"? where I have to be able to wake up at 3AM when the client's LLM took down their prod, commute to a vulnerable office in Kyiv (and pay for expensive AND equally vulnerable housing there), live under a threat of getting fired because I was "not AI enough" or whatever management wants, or because I don't have gigabit Wi-Fi in the shelter? fuck it, I'll rather be a night-shift loader and idk, learn embedded at home.
the world devolving into proompting has ruined tech for me. prolly I'll get a Cat. C driver's license and spend little what I have remaining of life on the road. if I get lucky, I may eventually reach CE and Euro 95 certs, and that in turn gives me some sort of safety against mobilization.
if the war ends before I become 25, I'll likely end up a stereotypical himbo truck driver. I'm tired of having to perform the smartness.
You have my sympathy. I can't offer you any advice, but I was just thinking earlier about how awful I feel for younger people working in this industry, and that didn't even include being Ukrainian.
Thank you, and one in the above comment, for sharing this. I feel comments like these need to be seen more frequently by people not in your situation. Hard claim I can even imagine what it feels like.
Necessity is the mother of invention and I can only imagine the volume of necessity that your environment demands. If fighting is not an option, can you use your skills to make some lemonade out of a giant bowl of lemons?
Hang in there. This, too, shall pass.
I hope more than anything Ukrainians will stay strong and persevere. Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends. The mere fact that you are Ukrainian and live in Ukraine invokes a certain level of respect.
> Perhaps not even for themselves or their country, but just to witness the enemy collapse when it all ends.
I hope more than anything that Ukraine (and Russia, and Israel, and Palestine, and all the war-torn regions of the world) can one day be free of this ghoulish mindset, that world leaders will choose life instead of worshipping death
You're probably was lucky to be born in war-free region, so it is easy to label things as ghoulish from a position of morally concerned outsider. You was never forced to leave your homeland and become a refugee, you was not separated from your loved ones by the border of warring countries, your friends and loved ones were not killed or imprisoned by invading nazi army. And it's a good thing for yourself, but you are not in a suitable position to judge Ukrainians or Syrians or other peoples who have been through it.
Yeah wishing to see people who tried to torture and kill you dead is ghoulish.
It’s not ghoulish but it also perpuates a never ending cycle unfortunately- we as in each culture, man, woman are all wronged in so many ways and most have legitimate grievances and are skilled in restarting and kindling those grievances with the next batch of children..ironically religion and nationalism kindles that even further while also providing a base identity to create fellowship between its adherents
But is the only way out further death and destruction?
Blessed be the peacemakers, as they say
While the attack on you is ongoing, yes, fighting back is the only way out. Giving up and dying is not peacemaking.
Fighting back to protect yourself is one thing, but exacting revenge leads to a cycle of violence. Especially when it is on an entire nationality or ethnicity.
on a serious note, it really is. death/execution as a punishment makes no sense. there are fates worse than death for those whose offenses we'd love to spill the blood for. Alcatraz is one such place where those fates are served.
and for crimes that are not enough to execute for, bog-standard prisons are enough. they are imperfect, but those willing to change prove themselves there, and a good one should give enough opportunities for a criminal to re-educate, reconsider some of their life choices, and rehabilitate.
punishment by death is never the right fit.
We're not talking a finished crime where "peaceful" punishment is an option. It is an ongoing war, missiles destroy cities and lives. When someone is doing that to you, killing them is usually the only way to stop it. Surrendering is not an option, see Bucha.
agree. yet, most of the time, most people have enforcement infra, and having an intent to kill, and not resisting it, is ghoulish. that way, one is perpetuating the very cycle that Europe attempted to stop within itself through coal and steel
How can you group Ukraine and Palestine in with Russia and Israel?
Russia and Israel are the countries causing the regions to be war torn. They are mass murdering invaders, no better than Nazi Germany.
It is my one sincere wish in life that the suffering of Ukrainians is not for naught and that the people of Europe support you until victory.
But Europe isn’t really supporting Ukraine, they’re just providing enough supplies to keep them in the fight. No state seems willing to provide enough assistance to allow for Ukrainian victory, because of the costs and risks associated with that aid. Even countries at little risk of reprisal from Russia are reluctant to do much at all.
As such, all of us doing nothing more than “voicing support” on the internet and some far-away rally, should offer our empathy, and not presume to tell them how much we’re “helping”.
> But Europe isn’t really supporting Ukraine, they’re just providing enough supplies to keep them in the fight
What is your definition of "supporting", if "providing support" doesn't count?
Ukraine is provided with tech, weapons intelligence, and all kinds of equipment. You are spewing nonsense.
A lot of European countries (especially those closest to Russia) are doing a fuckton relative to their economies.
The US is the despicable laggard, even when accounting for our distance from the action.
(And especially when accounting for the fact we promised them our protection of their sovereignty)
None of the European countries are doing much relative to their economies. Russia's GDP is about the same as Italy's. The rest of the EU and NATO countries together have an economy that is enormously larger than Russia's. So why do they allow Russia to push them around?
Here are the aid allocations to Ukraine as a share of GDP of the top contributors (all approximate from 2022 through to 2026):
Denmark: 3%
Estonia: 3%
Lithuania: 2.5%
Norway: 2.5%
Latvia: 2%
Sweden: 2%
Finland: 1.5%
...
UK [†]: 0.75%
...
United States [†]: 0.5%
[†]: These countries signed an agreement that they would protect Ukraine's sovereignty.
For context, the US's entire national defense budget is about 3% of our GDP. Or alternatively, Medicare is 3% of our GDP.
This statement is false: "None of the European countries are doing much relative to their economies."
I'm extremely sorry to hear about your life and honestly I don't want to be someone who is provides faux comfort saying everything will be alright. However, I am trying to imagine myself in your shoes and if it ever came to a point where I thought it my life is better off taken out, I would be willing to explore my absolute last options, no matter how miniscule the probability may be. Maybe some variant of high-risk emmigration? Maybe there's a waterway or a boat route or underground passage or forest or something.If I was anyway planning to take my life away without giving these extremely low probability options a chance, might as well go down with a fight. Probably this is naive, but that's only because I have personally never been in such a situation ever to even be able to provide a decent enough advice. I am completely baffled and very sorry you are going through this. You're not the first one to share this experience and probably won't be the last and at times like this it irritates me the feminist organizations all over the world have been dead silent on this matter. Equality only when it benefits them, I guess. I wish you good luck and hopefully get to meet you in person to learn of your amazing story of survival.
Good luck!
Can you suggest some things foreigners could do to help the situation in Ukraine?
Whatever I'm about to say may sound hollow, given that I've not been in your shoes.
At my previous (well known tech) company, we had a number of older Romanians who grew up in the Communist era. I became close with one of them. And the stories he told me were just harrowing. They were not at war, but the government simply couldn't provide for the people (other than giving them a good education). The struggle for basic necessities in the 80's became real. He had a wife and a newborn, and the wife was sick, and they couldn't afford any furniture. There was real concern the baby would die because the mother couldn't get even basic rest (no mattress, no bed, sleeping on concrete floor, etc).
The stuff he had to do to ensure she got a bed was crazy.
And then later there were food shortages, etc. Dodging bullets, etc.
But they all somehow persevered and focused on surviving. And then got out of the country as soon as the borders opened up. Eventually, because of their skills, they got great jobs. Very senior and well respected in the company.
But of course, they know people who did lose hope and ultimately committed suicide.
Living in the US, I've encountered lots of former refugees from war zones. People like yourself with skills did well here. For sure they struggled, but eventually they all "made it".
If you have skills, I hope you can last long enough to get there too.
If you're going to kill yourself anyway, why not just acquiesce? (To Russia.) This question may be stupid depending on the reader but I'm asking sincerely.
Life is strange. And circumstance even stranger.
I guess a die is rolled somewhere in the universe and we are born—who knew where, who knew when.
And there are many who are even less fortunate than ourselves.
Jeezus christ.
Lost for words fella, lost for words.
36 is young man. You got time.
Easy to say when drones & ballistic missiles aren't dropping left and right whereabouts you live...
Can you avoid conscription by volunteering your SW engineering talents for the defense sector? That was an option in many 20th-century wars but I don't know if it's relevant these days.
As an American, I'd like to say I'm as horrified by our faithless leadership as you are frightened by the circumstances you're facing, but that just sounds pointlessly shallow. All of Western civilization has a stake in keeping Putin at bay, but only your country is being forced to confront that fact right now. We should feel grateful to Ukraine, and in fact many of us do.
Suffice it to say we aren't all aligned with Musk and Trump, and many of us fervently wish we could do more to help in a meaningful capacity. Trouble is, about a third of our eligible voters have decided to put a single party decisively in charge of all of our branches of government, and the way our system is structured, that leaves the rest of us more or less powerless. That will hopefully change soon, but we'll see. Try to stay strong, and we will try as well.
You can, but as usual the opportunities are limited as military don’t need that much full stack engineers.
On the other hand senior embedded/mechanical/electronics/AI engineers are of the very high demand.
What is a senior AI engineer? Genuinely interested.
AI has been a thing for decades
Someone with experience in convnets, SLAM, motion planning, and a bunch of graph algorithms?
Because it's highly relevant, I'm going to paraphrase a comment I made last week:
I think a big part of the problem is that middle-aged men are at the apex of their expectations to be successful in the eyes of society, and we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
There is a name for this in sociology: anomie [1]. Émile Durkheim coined it in his book Suicide, written not too long after the Industrial Revolution.
In times of great change, the set of norms and rules that we take for granted as an organizing principle of our lives get uprooted. It's as if all of the pieces and tokens and rules of the board game we played our whole lives are swept off the table to make room for a new game, but the new game has not been set up yet. In that interim, we all feel a sense of unease. It is our turn to move, but we don't know the rules of the game or what moves to make. We feel intense pressure to play the game well, but don't know how.
In the past, these transitions have ended and society has generally returned to some sense of stability. A new board game gets set up, new pieces doled out, we learn to play the new game. I hope we get to that point with AI soon, but the revolutions seem to keep coming faster and faster.
I think for a lot of men, it feels like just at the time when we should be able to rest on our laurels a bit after having worked so hard to play the game society told us to, the rules have been ripped out from under us and any sense of security going forward is lost. We feel too old to learn the new rules of the game in time to play well, but not old enough to be able to abstain from playing.
It's a psychologically very difficult time.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie
Well said! 5 years ago I could have a pretty solid picture of what my career would look like through retirement.
Today, unclear what that would look like as well as unclear if the career will even exist that long.
One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright. I've been talking with older folks, and loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife.
pivot to what though, if "mind" jobs are going to be automated, it's not like there's a category of jobs that opens up, and going from mental to physical jobs in your 50s doesn't seem that easy
Physical jobs will drop in demand and increase in supply too. Unemployed "mind" workers don't have much to spend to drive much demand in manual work, and they might even try to pivot themselves to manual work, making things worse for manual workers.
and those who did the "mind jobs" 30-40 years ago retain that wealth, while wages plummet and they don't have to give up any significant part of their wealth to get what they want. This destroys class mobility , creating a type of feudalism.
>loads of people have historically done giant pivots at midlife
Lots of people didn't have their field automated away though alongside most other knowledge work fields, or seen at the same time a drop in demand in manual work and an oversupply (drop in demand because of upcoming AI layoffs, and oversupply in manual fields, because of same)
Everyone can't be a plumber.
In fact one of the worst "trade offs" of the trades is they can very much be a young mans game.
It gets real hard to sling water heaters up/down tight stairs or pull cable in a 100+ degree attic into your 50s.
> Everyone can't be a plumber.
Yes, but not for the reasons you say. It’s because if everyone is a plumber, you don’t need plumbers.
Get the young guys to do the lifting, there’s still plenty of room for old guys with experience who know all the tips, tricks and gotchyas.
Edit: Fair point, you don’t want to be entering a trade which requires heavy lifting as an older guy with no experience.
If you are 40 making a career change you have no experience tips or tricks.
When you lose your white collar job to AI you don’t have those tips, tricks, and gotchas for whatever work is left for you.
To be an old guy with experience you need to start as a young guy.
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long. I think I have 1.5 careers left in me, and a full pivot is alright.
I'm 41 and I could, in theory, pivot. But realistically: I'm good at exactly one thing in this world in terms of job ability. I can cook, I can bake, I can play music, but none nearly well enough to actually make a living on it. Thus the end of my tech career, if it should come to pass, basically means I will have to work menial jobs to get by. The future is very bleak for me, and the only real hope is that the tech industry will wake up to what a bad job LLMs do compared to humans. But while I think they will do that eventually, there's no telling how long it will take, and the thought that the market will eventually correct is cold comfort if I can't get a job in the meantime.
> One sunny spot I have is that life is very long.
Not sure exactly where you are in it, but as a 53 year old I disagree. The younger I was the less likely I would have been to disagree but imo/ime the older you get the faster it feels like it is flying by.
> and a full pivot is alright
The AI-related existential dread is that it is very unclear what a pivot looks like when the ground under everything is shifting all at once.
The shifting is certainly a lot more obvious in our career than some others, but all of that shift (so far) happened more or less in a mere 10 months and is accelerating. And I don't think it is very likely that our career will stay anomalous for very long in terms of how much AI impact there is.
yeah, you're down to like 3/4 a career left, it makes sense that you feel that way. Less runway ought to feel different.
I do agree that a safe 'next' is unclear. But I also think if ai truly hits all knowledge work as hard as it might we're looking at up to 50% unemployment. Frankly there is no point career planning at all in that scenario. We will all have much larger problems.
And if it doesn't, then pivoting to some field with a combination of rewarding work and 'enough' pay seems sensible enough.
> expectations to be successful
+1. Also maybe it's an age where responsibilities start to peak. More senior positions in the workplace, having children, marriage, etc.
I've had a few stressful periods lately where it felt or feels like I can't load any more on to my plate and I don't even have that many responsibilities - no kids either, just an accumulation of small and background things needing dealt with. I think I do understand people who do commit suicide to an extent - if you add the above normal stresses of life to some highly stressful life events like a breakup or divorce and throw kids etc into the mix - and hey why not a pile of work related stress too - I can absolutely see how people get pushed to the edge.
Modern society has not been arranged in a way that sets people up for success. Staring at device screens for more hours year on year likely doesn't help.
Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
This isn't even a flippant comment (especially given the subject matter); being at this age and thinking "I imagined it would all be easy by now" does hit home.
> You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
Do people who say this have kids? I ask genuinely. Everything before my little dude was fake. Everything since him is real deal Holyfield. Probably knock off in the next 20 minutes and take him to Home Depot to look at some bullshit because we have a good time with that kind of thing.
I can imagine having kids is super rewarding, but also amplifies the pressure of being a provider probably 100x. In uncertain times, I think a lot of us aren't sure how we'll provide for ourselves in ~5 years, let alone a tiny dude, which plays into the decision to not have kids.
I'm still gainfully employed, and business is ripping, but a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year. So part of me is extremely glad I don't have kids right now, and part of me is really angry that everything feeling so unstable is leading to our decision to not have them. I know that even in the best time it's a scary decision, but the general vibe is flipping people (like my wife and i) who are at the margin.
I would think those with kids at that age that wanted them worked backwards from that mission, and if they have a midlife crisis it's some version of having spent too much time working and on their kid and start spending their money on low-impact possibly expensive hobbies they'd have liked to do in their younger years, somewhat in denial of the fact that they sold their whole life to the man despite raising a kid.
that's what I felt about moving to a different country, too, until I didn't.
I think these things are less consistent than is often stated, we just see them occur consistently among people with similar lives. The "mid life crisis" is also debunked and replaced by "existential crisis" since it can actually occur at any age, from teenager to elderly, and zero, one, or multiple times. Only in the classic life progression of a certain era, it typically occurred worst at around 40-45 so it got that label.
No, we don't have kids and that's the problem.
More: Every time we point to this situation, we get insulted as incels. Sorry, I'm a multi millionaire, so I can provide, muscular, so I don't look too bad and have my health in order, CEO so I have some social status, and my love life has been terrible, I'm thinking of going to prostitutes to close the loop on being treated like shit.
Clearly there's something wrong in the dating market, women don't want to make families anymore, they literally don't want kids, and those who do, it's with wifeveaters. I know, "it must be you", "all men find women so you're probably a cunt" — I get it, I get it. We're truely the lost souls of today's world.
The only thing keeping me alive is the idea of revenge against the people who insult us like this.
Based on this one comment, my attempt at diagnosing what's going on in your situation is that you're probably relying too much on your money and job title to attract dates. As a result, the women you attract are approaching you transactionally from the very beginning. Nothing you wrote here told me you'd be a good person to raise kids with. I'm not a woman, but if I were, I'd be asking myself whether I thought you'd be helping with laundry or dishes or changing diapers when you didn't want to. I'd be worried you might get bored of that stuff, expect / demand sex, and justify it by claiming your job is too hard / important or you make all the money (even if you don't).
I'm definitely speculating quite a bit but I've met a lot of characters in my time and this is a very common pattern with a particular sort of middle-aged single man with a successful career.
I don't doubt that social media and dating apps may have broken the "market", but if you're living for revenge then women can probably pick up on that.
I don't think posting like Elliot Rodgers helps, my dude.
Internal vs external.
The midlife crisis is probably better described as a change or unease in the self and not knowing why you get out of bed in the morning anymore and that entire adventure, whereas this anomie is the social environment you're moored to breaking down.
>Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
Not anymore than WWII deaths are the epitome of "classic early life suicide".
If it was "the classic mid life crisis" the rates wouldn't be "highest ever" (as per the post).
Also to work so hard, and even when you have good luck as well, to see the people around you adapting their expectations so fast that they're blasé about what feels like amazing luck and success to you, and to realize that you can never satisfy them, only inevitably let them down when you experience setbacks.
> Is that not the epitome of the classic mid life crisis?
I think there's a step change from say the silent gen/baby boomer generations where a midlife crisis was realizing you lived the classic "American Dream" but weren't going to be a rockstar or super wealthy, compared to now where a midlife crisis could easily be wondering if you will continue to have any economic value at all years before social security kicks in.
Admittedly this is America-centric, but that's my lived perspective, and also I recognize that things weren't always very stable even here, thus why I am comparing a couple of specific generations to the ones that followed.
There was, for a time when I was younger (as a Gen-Xer), just an assumed sense that each generation would have it better than the last. Naive, perhaps, but alas. And obviously far less people assume that anymore.
Don't forget that social security has been raided and won't even be available for those of us reaching middle age right now and the people we keep electing who say they will do something about it have shown over and over and over that they actually won't.
Anomie plus helplessness plus a feeling of a rug pull of the laws/equality/character of our country. I am not suicidal but wow I get it.
SS was not "raided" . Whatever made you think that is surely contributing to human misery. It's just running out because it's always been a scheme where the young pay the old and we have fewer young than old. The people getting SS payments, themselves paid into it! It's not any sort of raid, corruption, evil...
I thought it was possible a generation could have it worse off through an economic crisis or period of 70s style malaise, but I at least thought the government would attempt to improve the lives of its citizens. I didn't expect the ruling political party to be so aggressively trying to make our lives worse.
On the mark.
I have however run out of fucks and am ignorantly coasting and making optimal survival decisions only. Fuck the business. Fuck the career. Highly recommended.
Hah likewise. In the early 2003's I was accepted into two of the top compsci universities in Canada but was rejected by the government for a student loan (my parent's income was too high, the government said-- they should pay. thanks government, no shit).
So I put all my fucks into working my ass off. Started dishwashing. Became a cook. Then owned a bakery. Built up a portfolio, became a sysadmin for a large company. After 6 or 7 years the writing was on the wall that I'd be replaced with a call center and some low wagies so I left.
Been working a do-nothing laid back remote job for a year now and never happier. My only source of stress is thinking that giving a shit when I was young would actually lead somewhere when I had the rug pulled under me from the get-go.
Do you have fuck you money?
We feel too old to learn the new rules of the game in time to play well, but not old enough to be able to abstain from playing.
Well said.
> we are living through a period of time where success is very hard to define, much less attain.
Do you think this has changed from say 10 or 20 years ago? To me, I don't get the sense that there has been shift in the social definition of success. Maybe I'm missing something?
In 2006 was success not having a big house in the suburbs and a six figure salary?
AI chatbots contributing to or reinforcing suicidal ideation.
Well said.
Part of working through history from (only) 100 years ago is an impression of how quickly societies were changing then. This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
Which isn't to downplay the upheaval that people are in - it is definitely traumatic. But we've been through disruption before. Hopefully we'll make fewer costly mistakes this time...
> This isn't the first time we've had the table cleared, and it hopefully won't be the last.
I don't think we should wish such evil upon future generations. The industrial revolution was a terrible time to live through, and arguably was not beneficial in the end to humanity. I would be very happy if we never had such a change again.
We can separate the table clearing from how we treat the players of the previous game.
We don't have many coal miners any more. How do we treat the people who used to be coal miners, when we get to 100% clean power? If we are running society well, we give them a hero's sendoff and a nice comfortable retirement life. If we are running society poorly, we take away their homes and healthcare to punish them for not having jobs any more.
This makes a lot of sense to me. I used to have plans for the future, I had the next couple of years mapped out. Then I tried AI and my plans simply dissolved. I have no idea what's going to happen now.
Feels like all the effort I put into coming this far was invalidated overnight. The writing is on the wall, and now I have about five years to get rich at any cost until it's all over. Now I'm firing from the hip in all directions, trying to hit something, anything.
I used to enjoy programming as a hobby, writing articles. It's all so meaningless now. What's the point?
maybe some just don't want to live that long. does everyone need to live as long as possible? you live your youth, and maybe that is enough for some.
if you start to hurt every day, get diagnosed with age-related disease, your cognition starts to deteriorate, etc, you might just decide "hey, i lived enough. i don't want to go through years of feeling like this."
I think about this increasingly often. I have accomplished much, and have seen much of the world. I have also lived through gruesome deaths in my family and have seen how aging in America, under American healthcare looks.
I retired in 2023, not because I could, but because I couldn't not. I'm almost 50. My parents died in their early 60s. I have some of their health problems, and some of my own. I also destroyed my back in a motorcycle accident many years ago and live with constant pain.
My favorite things to do, which bring my peace and joy, involve me sitting in a chair, which hurts my back. In my youth I rode my bicycle avidly, which now hurts my back. I love gardening, and if I do it too much, it hurts my back.
It became increasingly clear to me that my "purpose" in this country is to work until I die. I know that there are other countries, and other kinds of lives, but they are not where my wife and friends and life are.
I am happy, relatively healthy, and love life. I would like to live forever if I could. I know I could fill every minute of it with things I find interesting, even if it was just reading every single book.
But I've seen what American life looks like in your 60s and older, and it's not fucking pretty for most people.
IME cycling a recumbent can ease stress on the back. https://sheldonbrown.com/org/greenspeed-index.html
Sure its a little off putting but if you've the time and money it could be worth trying.
Are you me? My old motorbike injuries are a little more distributed but -- like yours -- almost entirely crippling from the perspective of doing anything joyful; we're in the same bucket yearwise; and it sounds like we always visit the doctor with just the one bullet in the chamber.
Mostly just posting to say, hey, there's others out here like you. Hang in there, Almost-Me. If not, see you on the other side.
A hurting back on a bike might be an issue of bike fit. Bicycle touring is a hobby regarded as accessible to even the elderly, and indeed one often comes across people age 50-80 on popular routes. Many of them will complain about a bad back off the bike when doing other things like camping or carrying panniers, but a fitted bike should not strain one's back.
Are you a bot? Seriously? The dude said he roached his back in a moto accident... no coming back from that
Deadlifts helped my chronic congenital back pain that is probably some combination of DDD and scoliosis and multiple herniations. Yes sometimes it pisses off the disks and I'm pretty useless for a day or two. And yes it has added some other problems. But overall I went from constant sharp pain nearly unable to remain seated, to occasional dull pain I can ignore, and rarely some really bad pain. Overall it's much better of a life.
Have you tried drinking cherry juice? I heard moving to Washington can help due to the air there.
That's why Mishima topped himself at the age of 45: as a physical-conditioning buff and gay man, he came to a firsthand realization that it was all downhill from there. What you posted is very similar in spirit to the opening of his last novel.
For most people, the real physical deterioration doesn't have to kick in until age 65 or so (plus or minus). But you do have to show up every day and hit it hard. In the last triathlon I raced there were men in that age group still finishing with fast times. And they're not genetic freaks either, just consistent.
Much easier said than done. Ending your life is the last decision you'd make.
I defined success for myself quite a few years ago: I want to leave the world better than I found it. No high aspirations, no figure. Just better than it was.
Some of that is political advocacy. Some of that is open source code that should exist. Some of that is helping a neighbor. I don't need to hit a certain bar, I just need to know that in a given interaction or situation, I am trying to make things... at least a little better.
That also scales well to differing life decisions. The video game I'm playing, can I get people to play a little nicer with each other and have more fun? Workplaces are full of dumb stuff, success is making it at least a little better. Turns out I have kids now. Wasn't the plan, but now my obligation is to make sure my involvement in their lives is positive. Not a specific bar I have to achieve, but you know, someday I hope someone appreciates how I chose to live my life.
"To laugh often and much, to win the respect of intelligent people and the affection of children, to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends, to appreciate beauty, to find the best in others, to leave the world a bit better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch... to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived. This is to have succeeded!" - Emerson
Yup, I tell my partner all the time. I just want the new era to be here already. I hate this waiting. I'm very annoyingly optimistic and think we're headed for post-scarcity.
In wealthy first-world countries we're already post-scarcity to a first approximation for stuff like food, clothing, and consumer electronics (I do understand that a minority of people are still desperately poor). But the stuff that people really covet will always be scarce. For example, AI can't create new real estate in prime locations.
I hope you're right.
Eh, I don't think today is really all that different from the last 100 years. We as software engineers may feel different as it's (maybe) our turn in the barrel.
I'm 40, and I am not suicidal, but I've definitely felt those thoughts more than ever in my life in the past two years. I wake up two or three times every night from anxiety dreams. I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit. Between (some of) the effects of AI on my career and hobbies, and the effects of politics on my country and even my own town, and many more problems, I can count more things I feel love and passion for that have been demeaned or destroyed in the past decade than such things that persist.
And this isn't even to mention money, and what my future is looking like, despite having every possible intrinsic and external advantage in The Greatest Country on Earth.
I've had one same-aged friend kill themselves, and I try to be attentive to the signals being put out by everybody in my circle.
> I began drinking too much, but luckily I was able to get out of that habit.
Alcohol is incredibly dangerous after 40, particularly if you've got a history as a heavy drinker. I've had to cut back to virtually nothing as it's guaranteed to trigger anxiety and depressive episodes.
Almost all the premature deaths in my circle, including suicides, have been alcohol-linked.
Obviously, YMMV, everyone's different, but if anyone reading this thread is over 40, struggling, and still drinking regularly, taking a break can really help.
Well, not taking a break, but stopping.
I am very glad I ripped that bandaid off over a decade ago. But success for people with a genuine problem is stopping, not taking a break
I celebrated 20 years since my last drink on Monday of this week.
People who want to drink--should drink.
People who don't want to drink but find that they keep doing it anyway, might want to check out what AA has to offer. It worked for me when nothing else did.
Congrats!
I switched to NA beer so that when I did decide to “have a few” it would be a rare occasion. Then I realized that NA beer was doing it for me and I haven’t gone back. It’s not for everyone but it worked for me.
I do enjoy NAs too, and we are blessed with a booming market these days!
But I do know some alcoholics that say they can’t even taste the stuff or it will trigger them. So to each their own
I quit 2 years ago. The juice wasn't worth the squeeze. Sad, to think at one time I almost opened a brewery.
And it's bad for you, yes, and that's why I quit, it was fucking with my sleep horribly, but also it's such a drain on your finances today. And given the state of things today, I'm glad I quit when I did. Saving a grand a year isn't a lot but that money is much better off being spent in a different way.
I wanted to open a brewery too! I now realize it was probably just fuel for my addiction, though I do genuinely love the flavors of modern craft beers (which have come a long way). But not nearly as much as I love a stable life lol
I was homebrewing for years in the late 00s and early 10s. At the time I was living in Santa Barbara, and there was a great community there, the Santa Barbeerians, and it was a lot of fun. At the same time I was roasting my own coffee beans and really into coffee. My wife and I floated the idea of opening a place with another couple but it never panned out.
Anyway I don't disagree, in retrospect it was all a way to drink more beer in different styles than I could readily get from a store. It's easy to justify in the moment but having many gallons of beer around all of the time is dangerous...
Fair, stopping better. It's a tough thing for many to imagine though. It took a break for me to understand I needed to do more.
I'm 41. My youngest brother blew his brains out in July. My other brother has cut himself twice. I quit my job as an EMT because I'm in no mood to transport SI patients. I needed a job on short notice to keep making my mortgage payments, so now I'm breaking my body 50-60 hrs/wk pouring concrete with the Amish. And it doesn't even cover the bills.
I can't afford health insurance, let alone health care. 0 sick days, 0 vacation time, $0 leisure spending. Credit card debt ticks up each month. Retirement savings is a pipe dream. How could I conscionably attempt a family under these conditions? I'd never have time to be a part of it and would be plagued by the guilt of not being able to provide.
But hey, I'm told to feel lucky I managed to lock in a 30-year mortgage at 5.99%: If I'm diligent paying on it until I've got a foot in the grave, selling the house might pay for end-of-life care!
I’ve lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well. So much has happened that it’s impossible to pinpoint one root cause, it’s all contributing.
Don’t know if you’re soliciting advice, but there are a few things that keep me feeling the way I did before: physical exercise, and live music. Unfortunately I find less time as the week goes by to dedicate to those things, but I at least know they’re there.
Therapeutic writing that out loud, in a way.
> I've lost a lot of my spark in the past 6 years as well.
I felt similarly and had a "crisis" point at the start of 2025. I realised that living a fulfilling life had to become my top priority, no matter how difficult or uncomfortable it may seem. Otherwise, I might not survive another 30 years.
Now I can see a bit of the mechanism behind the dimming of the spark. I had gradually conceded the direction of my life to external forces, and let anxiety and self-doubt drive my decisions. It's a great way to end up with a life that you don't want. I shudder to think of what it's like to do that for 20 years instead of 5.
Not to be a downer. It is therapeutic, and I exercise 5-6 times per week between strength and conditioning, but it's not enough. It's a short distraction, it helps me temporarily. The truth is there's something very wrong with the world today and the pressure we're all feeling, speaking personally here, leaves me feel like I'm ready to crack constantly. But I have a wife and kids and elderly parents, and they all depend on me so I need to keep holding it together. Somehow.
AI hasn't made a dent in my enjoyment of my hobbies and tech (the opposite, now I have more toys to play with than ever), but politics? Oh man, politics becoming the new religion has absolutely ruined pretty much everything for me.
I don't believe in politics. For me left and right are all *the same*. Just a bunch of megalomaniacs wanting to hog power for themselves. This extremely hot take has made people call me more names and costed me more relationships than if I went out and started screaming slurs in a crowded street. Because I am a "fence sitter" or whatever.
And I just can't handle it anymore, I just went full recluse. I don't go into social media anymore, I don't talk to anyone at a personal level anymore. Outside of some github issues and some comments here, I don't touch socials anymore. I am just overwhelmed by the level of vitriol and hate the new internet is based on.
I don't know how sincere this comment is, but if there are others thinking this way, it's a mistake. Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Social media is a veil of manipulation, engagement maximization, and bots. Do not misconstrue it as any kind of real or productive politics. There is a signal there amongst the noise, but it's hard to make sense of if you do not have a coherent world model or belief system. You have to learn to cut through it if you want to keep your sanity.
Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway? My belief is that all of us, no matter our gender, religion, age or social standing, are prey for the political and "elite" class. And not only we aren't holding them accountable, we are fighting their fights for them in several fields of our lives in form of "political discourse".
My country has a very serious housing crisis, both the left and the right are contributing to it because both parties have multiple people who are "serial landlords" with several properties, so they only make laws that benefit the landlord. This is a known fact and there are huge protests ongoing about it to the point emergency elections have been called.
Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on. Like you have some ulterior motive or are a paid shill from the other side or making the logic leap to thinking you support the far-right for not choosing one of the two existing "teams". Everything has gone crazy.
> Read my other comment in the thread. Why would I post a non-sincere comment on this anyway?
HN is social media, saner than most, but I still don't assume sincerity.
> Yet, saying this simple stance just as I did now, that both of them are guilty, will have people call you an "ultra" or call you a conspiracy theorist, that you are a fence sitter, that you don't know what you are talking about, and so and so on.
If you mean people online, then that's expected. It's what I meant by social media being unproductive. Hostility attracts engagement and makes it more visible.
National politics is heavily influenced by economic interests, including global capital. And as wealth concentrates so does political power. That doesn't mean ordinary citizens have no political agency though, don't underestimate the difference you can make in your local community.
Mostly online yes, but even offline people have been in a very strange edge lately. Like, if you don't take a stance to one of the two main political parties in my country, that means you support the third option which is a far-right party. If any of the members of that party bumped me on the street I wouldn't recognize them. Anyway, once that implication is on the table people start assuming (and saying behind your back) very ugly things about you very fast, which is why I started disengaging.
My heart is with the people, not the corporations or the elites. I just feel none of the choices right now is for the people. I don't understand why that would make me "hate LGBT people or migrants". It just doesn't make sense to me. The team mentality of the whole thing has gone too far in my opinion. And I don't understand why people get so heated up for groups that don't care about them at the end of the day.
I don't even think I'll be alive to see another election after the emergency one next month though. So it's too late for me to make any meaningful change. So I'm just trying to use my remaining time to leave a bit of a legacy as an artist and programmer. Even if I enjoy AI. One thing doesn't cancel the other. I do mostly analog art and even have been pretty excited to try new tools now that my hand works again (surgeries obliterated my hands for a while and they are permanently blue-ish and cold now, but I regained some mobility this month). AI is for me "that thing I wanted since I was a kid when scifi had AIs doing stuff".
In fact, that whole thing is also another can of worms. People can't seem to understand I can be an artist AND enjoy AI. The moment I mention AI people start assuming I flood the world with slop and want to destroy artists, then they ask for proof that I'm an artist, I show them my work (impossible for an AI to replicate because it's mostly analog), they go "but if you can draw like this why do you use AI!?? You should hate it because it's against you" and they can't conceive that for me it's just fun to tinker with it and test what it can do for fun. Like I should immediately take an anti-AI stance BECAUSE I am an artist. The AI is not replacing me because for me art is a form of expression and doing it is its own reward. It's just fun. Both things are fun to me. I don't see why they are exclusive.
It's like there's no room for human nuance and contradictions anymore. You have to be in a neat little box or else you are a bad person so it's right to fight you and hurt you. It's "justified", you know. Even if they are completely wrong, they already passed judgement.
I think most folks are actually in the middle and generally agree. Anyone who thinks one of the us political parties is completely innocent is lying, either to you or themselves.
That being said, I think it's worth noticing if one party does more bad things than the other and I also think speaking up with your values is worth it and maybe even a duty we owe the people who built this country before us.
Either way, your first responsibility is your own mental health so you have full support from this internet stranger.
>Nihilism is a dead end (or political cynicism/fatalism, whatever you want to call it).
Nihilism is a popular, vague pejorative today but philosophically it's a serious answer to exactly the manipulation, engagement-bait and juvenile techno-optimism of our age. Whenever you're at the end of some moral or social period active, not resentful or passive nihilism, is a palate cleanser and necessary condition for revaluation of all values.
The kind of middle aged men that tend to fall into despair or suicide in these times are usually people who rely on some identity provided to them that then crumbles. Job, money, house, status, 'how to be a man' etc. There's something they're supposed to be like and they're not, stability they took for granted just stops.
And we're in a period like this across many dimensions, political, technological etc. And if you want to be sane a dose of nihilism is fairly important so that you can go on and construct some sovereign answers to all these issues.
> not resentful or passive nihilism
To be more precise, it was passive nihilism I was criticizing. That's the sentiment I sensed in the original comment.
Same, in many senses. But you can’t fully detach from humanity without losing your own humanity. Forget socials, and pretty much all media consumption, but go talk to real people, make friends, find an human partner. Even raise a family.
Sadly I can't raise a family. This January I got a pretty bad brush with death and got diagnosed with something pretty bad and I don't have a lot left. After 5 high-risk surgeries (because of the medication making me bleed too much) I finally regained some autonomy and can move again, but I can't have kids. My bloodline ends with me, and it's better this way because this is hereditary and gets worse every generation. My kids would die at ~20 if lucky, according to the doctors.
Even knowing this, people around me still called me all sorts of things for not having strong opinions on random political things or wars. How can I worry about that when I am going to die soon anyway? Got enough in my plate to think about global politics.
Jeez, in so sorry to hear that. I personally know multiple people who’ve far exceeded their “you have X time to live”, but in any case live life as best you see fit for happiness and contentment. Spend time with people you love and ignore all the bullshit that stresses us out. Best of luck my friend
Sadly, all my loved ones are already gone from the same illness, so I'm afraid I can't take your advice. All I got left is a couple online friends, my job (of which I've been away for too long due to the surgeries...) and my computers. I'm trying to make the most of what time I got left doing coding and art, now that my hands kinda work again. I found a box of very cool quality markers when I could finally get out and been practicing with them. I was always a color pencil/watercolors guy, but this is pretty cool. Since I enjoy drawing robots and vehicles a lot I've been combining them with metallic markers for very cool effects. I am also learning how to do more physical electronics tinkering and getting better with a soldering iron at last, repairing old stuff and so.
I also enjoy the new wave of AI stuff. It took a while but I finally got a little robot buddy like in scifi when I was little. Full offline. It's kind of a dum-dum, but mostly works!
Unfortunately it's such a negative thing outside of places like HN that I can't share that joy with most people. Also a lot of people can't seem to wrap their head around an artist that enjoys AI, as I mentioned in another post in the thread. I have to shut up about it pretty much everywhere.
Anyway, I digress...thank you.
"Go talk to real people" is easier said than done post-Covid. I'm in a European university city where even young people are complaining online of a dearth of opportunities for in-person socializing -- there is a good amount of cultural events and cafes to go out to every night, but it has become taboo to talk to strangers there even among young people, and a single middle-aged man's attempts to socialize anywhere would not be welcomed. Even people attending the remaining hobby meetups are finding merely practice of the hobby, but not any meaningful social contact alongside it.
Social media is poison, sure, but detaching from it doesn't mean you can get an IRL social life to replace it.
Talk to older people then. I am not “young” but I still find it easier to talk to people older than myself (retirees on up to senior geriatrics)
Encouraging people to procreate is absolutely wild to me. That's just adding fuel to the fire.
Yo I'm also strictly apolitical and never had an issue with relationships or social circles, I just tell everyone I meet that "I do not talk politics, because maintaining my mental health is a full time job without putting the weight of the entire country/world onto my shoulders in addition" and so far they've all understood. The radicals who wouldn't understand I just say goodbye to, but this hasn't happened yet.
This is a bait comment because any push back will just re-affirm your stance and I don’t know if you’ll find much agreement here otherwise. Millions of people died in WWII defending against ideas that are actively being brought by a clear side.
FWIW it’s not that hard to be a fence sitter and not advertise it to everyone. It sounds like either you’re hanging with the wrong people, or you’re the problem. I guess go back to playing with your toys!
I know friends and family with many kinds of beliefs, we don’t rehash why they believe those things every time we see each other. Humans are complex /shrug
This is an unbelievably atrocious response. Where is your humanity?
You just proved my point.
"This is a bait comment". Shame on you.
I voted you both up, because you're both right. Those who aren't dying before their time have an obligation to their future selves to make things better. Unfortunately it sounds as if you have a good excuse to begin letting go of worldly concerns, but the truth is, only the worst people benefit if the rest of us adopt an apolitical perspective.
See my other post in this thread, for example, replying to a Ukrainian who's finding that people he thought could be counted on can't be. As I suggested obliquely in that post, this is because one-third of our electorate is either brainwashed or malicious, one-third is willing to do what we can, and one-third can't be bothered to care either way.
Our brains are constantly bombarded with ever growing information and noise. With mindfulness, deliberate separation from most of the daily noise we can all zero in our own purposes in life. This hard, doesn’t happen overnight but with little steps and a lot of patience we will find that eventual purpose. And you find it hang on to it. I found reading the New Testament brings me instant peace when my brain is in turmoil. Hang in there strong with spiritual closeness, removing noise and avoiding those negative thoughts.
You know, I don't think Jesus cures depression
It's ironic that the "acktually.." atheist/anti-theist crowd don't do a modicum of research when it comes to this kind of stuff. It's pretty well-established in the literature that folks plugged into a religious community live better, happier, and healthier lives[1].
Millenial cynicism is so boring.
[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5127763/
teensy effect size according to some
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10508619.2020.17...
> Of eight R/S predictors that were distinguished, only participation in public religious activities and importance of religion were significantly related to mental health
> folks plugged into a religious community live better, happier, and healthier lives
Could be:
> folks plugged into a community live better, happier, and healthier lives
Or even
> folks with a weekly routine in a third space live better, …
There’s nothing causational about the denomination.
> folks plugged into a community live better, happier, and healthier lives
It is this mainly. Community is the reason most people find happiness. Some people find it at church, some on a Sunday at a football game, some at their dnd game that’s being going on for years and some find it in their family. I am not particularly religious but I am 100% onboard the idea that community brings happiness. I find happiness in just having good neighbors.
> There’s nothing causational about the denomination.
You're right, I'm sure the people that are publishing these studies have never heard of "correlation is not causation."
Can’t wait for them to test why specific denominations have a positive causal impact on wellbeing over others. Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Southern Baptists, etc.
While we’re being snarky, should we talk about the people who are arbitrarily and capriciously removed from these communities during times when they need them most? Like women seeking divorce in abusive relationships while in a denomination that preaches absolute subservience to the male head of household?
... or people who attend religious services are less likely to self-report depression because of perceived weakness, shame, etc
Tell that to the gay kid who lived through god hates fags. Or the trans person today.
Speaking as a gay dude, it doesn't mean you have to follow a mainstream religion to find spirituality, especially one which tells you that you are an evil person because of who you are. Personally I've taken bits of various eastern religious beliefs which now form my 'spirituality'.
It's weird, its like there is some part of our mind that requires something spiritual to fill it, and has been that way every since recorded history. People have always looked for something higher than themselves, whether is be a god or gods, or the idea of nature or the universe, or any matter of similar ideas. And filling that part of our minds with a belief in something, seems to put the mind at ease in some ways. A lot of medical literature I've read includes 3 parts of yourself that you need to take care of: mind, body and spirit. So I really do believe there is something behind it.
That study you linked does not establish a causal relationship. It may simply be that the sort of person who is able to extract well-being from church is the sort of person more likely to actually attend church with any regularity. It likewise does not address the possibility that depression itself might make one want to stop attending church.
>Millenial cynicism is so boring
Yeah, it's always Millennials who are in the wrong. Fuck us, right? It's all good, we're used to being the scapegoats for society's problems.
I'm a millennial and I feel like nearly all the discourse about who is (generationally) responsible for society's problems is aimed at the boomers. And the zoomers to a lesser extent, though that seems more of a prophecy about how they're going to ruin society. Jabs aimed at us millennials tend to be that we're cringe (or boring), which I can accept.
In my opinion, this is a form of hatred.
To each their own. I don’t think we should judge anyone on where they find their faith, that is, the drive to keep going on. Everyone is different.
Person A might find it in nature, camping, trailing, etc. Person B might pursue a more spiritual path, giving back to the community, being of service.
Whatever floats the boat man. Live and let live.
Not religious, but also not disputing that believers have lower rates of depression either.
Believing in a higher power has seemed to provide great comfort to a number of friends and family over the years. I went to a friend's father's funeral a while back, and I had to admit, the service, the way the community came together was moving, and it really made me question whether I should return to the church as an adult, even with my questions of faith.
He said something about moths and rust consuming matter and with that at the very least he pointed out quite clearly the source of our suffering in regards to the AI transformation
The problem is that humans evolved to be religious, and you can't just ignore that and get rid of it in a generation or two. It is in our brains and we have to live with it somehow. So from that perspective ... maybe Jesus does cure depression.
Humans most certainly did not evolve to be religious. We evolved to look for and, if necessary (to our minds), invent meanings behind things which sometimes have truly no meaning at all, i.e. the existence of existence itself. We also evolved to be fearful of the unknown, e.g. the experience of death and afterward. It seems quite simple to see how those two things resulted in our eventual invention of religion, but we did not simply evolve to be religious per se.
I'm not saying that every possible path of evolution leads to religion, only that ours did.
Except some of us consider ourselves to be quite evolved, not religious, AND absent of depression. Maybe depression (or the lack thereof) has nothing to do with religion at all.
If you're trying to establish if X is a cure for Y, then looking at people who don't have Y will not tell you much.
I don't know about Jesus curing depression, but it's certainly true that belief in Jesus has made many people feel better.
Excellent advice
> I found reading the New Testament brings me instant peace when my brain is in turmoil
I wonder if the Old Testament gives you the same effect
I turn 39 this year and am just finding more and more ways to become irrelevant. I can’t be the only one so these stats make sense to me. Fortunately, Australia has a good start on what mental health care should look like and its subsidised (or at least a few sessions are).
I was made redundant in August and despite being a 20 year career vet who has done many different langs, I still can’t find a new job.
My skills as a developer are no longer required because the all knowing robot can (apparently) do what I need to do. I’ve heard multiple companies now using it to ship stuff all the way into production without any human intervention at all. This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel.
The side hustle I had of writing books to teach people development is over — they can just ask the robot instead. I was writing a new book about how developers can train up others, but have put that on hold (due to losing my job which was that thing, and because of AI)
I honestly don’t know what I’m supposed to do here to provide for my family.
I think most white-collar people have similar feelings. I certainly am, and many dev-friends and coworkers have confided such to me.
My software skills are now irrelevant. I've accepted that the omniscience robot is a better engineer than me. No clue what I'm going to do next, but I have to figure it out fast once my job disappears.
I wanted a family, but I'm relieved that I don't have one now. I can't imagine the stress and pressure of that with how weird everything is now. I'm nearing the end of the timeline for that anyway, being in my late 30s. Probably a blessing in disguise.
I have a some good hobbies that keeps me on my toes (physically, mentally) and a full social and family life fortunately. That's what fills my cup. I'm not stoked about tech anymore anyway.
I've been through a 6 month long unemployment. Got let go from a company (along with the majority of the dev team) which picked up AI like a shiny object thinking it could do everything.
Then I got hired to a company which have been pushing AI 100% for like a year, not at the expense of headcount, but responsibly as the N+1th productivity increasing tool, like what it is.
It's a really nice environment where keeping and cultivating great talent is not just one of the primary marketing slogans on the hiring page, but it actually feels like it while on the job.
My talent is nowhere near yours, so don't lose hope, keep applying.
I read your 'Leaving Tech' blog and it made me sad because it reflects a lot of what I'm feeling. Luckily I'm still employed, though it feels fairly tenuous at the moment
"This feels to me like driving the car without holding onto the wheel."
And this is why the whole thing will implode eventually. But there will be a period of pain until then.
While I applaud Australia's initiatives, I am becoming more and more convinced that a lot of people are already in (or heading towards) situations that the mental healthcare field can do very little, if anything, to improve.
To all those reading this thread, suicide isn't the answer. I know you've heard this and it's not special coming from me.
We all heard it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and so many other quotes. I've lost a lot of people growing up to suicide and the impact it has on those who continue to live on that you love is traumatic.
The man who raised me like I was his son told my mother that he would never commit suicide. He had stage 4 cancer that eventually took his life on my 17th birthday. His reason for enduring through the pain was to teach me that suicide is never the answer because it hurts all those around you.
Although he passed away on my 17th birthday of his illness, he forever changed my life in so many ways. Each and every day I aim to be a better man because of how he loved me.
Please take a moment to utilize this time you have to change those around you. You don't need to create a massive company, be a CEO, have a career people admire, etc.. all you need to do is be someone that inspires others to improve like John did for me.
By the way, 2026 was the 30 year anniversary of his passing. I'm 47 years old and I still think of him almost daily.
I solo founded and run a men's suicide prevention nonprofit organisation in the UK. It's early stage bootstrapped at the moment but I have long-term plans.
I've facilitated 200+ talking meetings at this organisation and another I was involved with previously. Anecdotally, the average attendee at the male-only meetings is ~45 years old, has some level of issues with personal and/or professional boundaries, has had suicidal ideation more than once, and has made plans for or attempted suicide more than once.
There is some form of survivorship bias in the above, but I get a lot of pride from our groups keeping men alive. We haven't lost anyone in 2 years.
I would imagine it feels like a huge responsibility, and also immensely fulfilling.
I couldn't imagine being brave enough for it, props to you for doing this!
It's a responsibility and fulfilling, extremes at both ends. The key thing is self-management, and knowing limits. I learned a lot from the ASIST course, and I retake the full two-day training every two years or so:
https://livingworks.net/training/livingworks-asist/
I have no connection or affiliation with the organisation beyond being a delegate.
Ooof, not even that old here and I'm feeling that. Things are pretty bad all over. Gets hard to want to be around. AI took my job recently and I've been moved back to helpdesk and just awaiting further layoffs. There's not much fun in intellectual pursuits any longer as LLMs have taken it all. All my fun hobby projects are just jokes now as anyone with money can easily outdo me with an LLM. Sad times...
Why do you imagine yourself you be in competition with others while doing hobbies? Do you not find pleasure in the doing?
No pleasure really anymore, my hobbies were coding occasionally and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Recently I started rebuilding a custom d3d9 hook for an old game and it was really fun and I planned to release it to the community. But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
Try see if you can find some physical hobby that has nothing to do with computers.
Mine is gardening. With relatively little effort, I can grow a decent amount of foods, much of it interesting varieties that are not grown commercially anywhere. I really doubt that we're going to see affordable humanoid robots out-competing me in this hobby any time soon.
Do you not see a benefit in coding for the mental exercise and challenge?
Most hobbies are impractical... Machines can produce clothes much faster than a knitter, no chess player will beat the best computers, a boat can bring more fish to port in one trip than you can in a year, etc.
> and there's no point to it. Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
That's OK, you don't have to be the best at any one thing. The important thing about any hobby, be it programming, skateboarding, or playing the piano, is that you feel personal satisfaction in doing it, not in the reactions of people to your work. Your enjoyment of a hobby should never be based on whether or not people like it, or even whether or not they want to use the thing you created. If you feel that a project that you are working on could be summed up in a single prompt that can be given to an LLM, then your job is not to work on the project directly, but rather to find what makes what you are doing unique. It doesn't even have to be technically interesting or bring any new ideas to the table, just the fact that somebody has put in effort into making something (regardless of completion or quality) gives it value.
>Anything I write will be outdone in 2 seconds by someone else.
Then it's not really a hobby, no? Sounds more like a weird competition.
>But before I could, many many others had an LLM do the same thing and my work was obsolete in a moment. There went that hobby... so now I'm hunting a new one...
That sounds more like a job, at least with your perspective.
>I gain no joy from that, the joy I would have gained would be from other people using my work. Now they can produce my work without me entirely...
That's a job, man. Even if you're not getting paid money for it, you're not really doing it for yourself.
The point is a bit moot cause it's the same difference: you can get joy from a "job" and AI making that job obsolete sucks regardless. But if that's what you think a hobby is, then you don't have an actual hobby.
Go take up gardening.
We've thoroughly pathologized this aspect throughout history, but doing things that earn you societal status and respect from others is a essential for having a healthy psyche for many, possibly most people, men especially struggle when they don't have avenues to demonstrate skill and competence.
If their hobby was contributing through code and now their contributions are worthless, they have lost a hobby.
Doing things to share them with others is pretty normal in a hobby. You might be baking for friends and family or sewing clothes or whatever, and want to enjoy the recipients appreciation for it. If people don't accept your gifts, the satisfaction of it will go away, and the same is often true of small coding projects I think.
I wish I could take up gardening but alas I live in an apartment like most other people... I suppose you got me, I have no hobbies and it's just another reason to not want to be here. :) Everything is work and not much fun, is it?
This is a weird PoV - that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo.
Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
I mean, it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic: hobbies via a community is still a hobby. There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
>that a hobby is only a hobby if there is no community and you do it solo
Didn't say that.
>Sounds like you're saying tennis can't be a hobby. Nor videogames, nor making movies, writing stories, etc.
Nope, those are not conclusions you can draw from what I said.
>hobbies via a community is still a hobby
Yup, don't disagree with that.
>There is no requirement that to qualify as a hobby it has to be completely audience-free.
Never said that.
What I did say as that producing a product which is meant to be consumed by others and which offers you no joy if it isn't consumed isn't a hobby- it's a job. Money doesn't need to be exchanged for it to be a profit-seeking activity. And to be clear: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But what I am saying is that, fundamentally, AI can't make a proper hobby obsolete.
The OP is disheartened because his "hobby" is no longer relevant because AI can do his hobby better than him. Just take a step back and think about that: does it make any sense? Can you think of a reasonable example of a hobby where this dynamic can ever occur?
Like, AI has gotten pretty good at music. Does that mean everybody who was in a band for the fun of it all disbanded because AI can make music better than them? Of course not; they still enjoy making music. Now, a band who is trying to make money off of their efforts may be facing a different reality: if people are able to generate better music than what they can produce for way cheaper, then staying in a band for profit is a hard sell. But note that in both instances, these people (who are clearly operating within a community) are doing the same exact activity, but one set of people are doing it as a hobby while the other is doing it as a job.
And again, to be clear: I'm not saying the OP's feelings aren't valid. They wanted to produce something that others would find valuable, and AI made their efforts obsolete. That sucks, and they're clearly not alone. What I'm disagreeing with is the notion that that is a hobby. And that's an important distinction, because the OP is claiming they don't have a hobby anymore and I'm claiming they never did. They should have a hobby- a proper hobby- because it's important for humans to have hobbies for their own well being.
There are hobbies that are heavily social.. I don't know what kind of maniac would make videogames purely for themselves
Imagine an apocalyptic zombie world, and what the last remaining man seek to do is... make video games for himself
I see what you're saying but I don't fully agree. Art is the obvious counterexample, like the poetry circles of old. The hobby was writing and sharing your poetry with peers. If no one was reading it, there would be much less joy in the production. That doesn't make it a job, it just makes it a social hobby.
The thing with that poster is that the output is not wholly art but also utility, so the AI could fully subsume that thing, if the consumers only care for the utility part. And software in general, qua art, is not an art that anyone but the author consumes, except for video games. So you're kind of right but also I think OP was using software as an artistic outlet through a utility output, which was neither a job nor is his current despair unfounded.
OP if you want to keep writing software for others you have to abandon the utility function and make art, such as games. That will fix your issue. And no, AI cannot make games as good as a human can.
Thank you for this post, enlightened being
Woefully out of touch and crass.
This is hideous.
It's not. At all.
If someone likes digging tunnels by hand, that's a hobby.
If someone is mad that tunneling companies make it hard for them to find "hand tunneling work", that's not a hobby. That's someone thinking their work is owed attention.
Go find a hobby that you like doing for yourself. Why do you think so many engineers turn to woodworking? It isn't because they think they're going to compete with Ikea.
Rhetorical analogies are for people who can not, or will not, respect the subject on its own terms.
This is hideous.
A hobby is something you do for yourself. Whether it's code, or painting, or woodworking.... you don't care if someone is better or faster than you. Unless you really see the hobby as a potential business, in which case you might want to reevaluate because with LLMs it's possible for an individual to do more by himself than ever before.
Well, some hobbies are fun because you're doing something no one else has done before, or which is challenging to accomplish without a lot of investment in time and growing in personal skill. A lot of hobbies are fun because of the competition and because you get to be at the forefront of something. It's fun because we're all limited in our time and energy and choosing to spend time on something means you can do things that someone else who doesn't spend time on it can't. That feels good.
People who were in the demoscene took joy in learning how to make a computer do things no one had done before and push the hardware to its limits. That's not as meaningful if someone can achieve the same thing by prompting an LLM.
A lot of hobbies are fun because of the human challenge in creating the output and knowing it was only achievable because someone had to take time to create it. Having an LLM accomplish the same thing absolutely devalues the fun in the hobby. Hobbies aren't 100% just about accomplishing something for yourself, even though if you sway to much into doing it for validation or to compete with others it can lead to burnout and lack of enjoyment.
You can do a hobby for any reason. It doesnt have to be for yourself. He could enjoy programming but also enjoy contributing to the wider open source community. So it makes sense to feel bad when he sees another project popup and invalidate his work. If it was another person who'd worked hard and thought about the project he could at least take solace in chatting about their solutions but with AI its nothing. It just solves the problem and there is little to be gained from it.
Many hobbies are collective endeavors or a way of providing something useful to other people.
Ah, well I do nothing for myself sir. I work most days of the week and time off is limited. My company doesn't really do vacations. I haven't had one in at least 3 years and hopefully I'll have the PTO soon but never the money!
That's silly. Why can't a hobby be something you want to show others and receive acknowledgement and validation from?
Maybe but any time you start depending on "validation" from other people you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Just be yourself.
Most people find joy in doing work that's useful to others.
I don't know if it's common but I generally don't like to be bad at my hobbies. I like it when I can do things well. I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
Not liking being bad at your hobbies is much different than not finding joy in them because people do them better than you. I work harder to be a better cook, it doesn't mean I'm in competition with people who cook better.
I keep wanting to say the same thing. In fact, how other people describe hobbies is why I don't like the term hobbies.
I think music is a good example of sometimes you need to not have fun to have fun. Practice isn't really fun, but if you can put up with it you can have a lot of fun. So you can say that the not fun parts are part of the fun parts because it's what gives you the payoff. But when people then go and send you a Suno generated song, and say it's better than yours, it is them devaluing the "not fun" parts you had to put up with. I've had people do similar things to code projects I've done. It's a real buzz kill.
I also really value when musicians critique my songs, even when I feel defensive about it. Because then it's not about them devaluing my time, it's about them helping me grow, and they know how it feels to go through that process.
Sure. But AI doesn't make you bad at hobbies. It just makes others better at it, and even that is a stretch.
>I've been learning the piano recently and striving to play more difficult songs is what makes it fun.
And are you going to give up learning piano because now AI can just generate piano music better than anything you can ever produce? No? Then what you're doing is a proper hobby, which contrasts with the OP who feels their efforts are no worthless because AI can just do it better. That's not really a hobby; it's a job.
How did AI make you "bad" at your hobbies?
(Apologies if I'm missing your point)
Hmm.. I meant to make my point in isolation from LLMs. I definitely don't feel that way about learning music.
I do kind of understand it when it comes to programming, though. Hobby-like side projects often felt like they had some utility down the line, even if not directly applied. It's fun to show others what you've accomplished, to show off, maybe land a job from being noticed, etc.
I'm sorry, but this is not realistic. Life is complex and involves many variables. You are right to engage with this question, but you are oversimplifying to the point of implying dishonesty, if I'm being frank (assuming you are not very neuro-divergent!).
There are your Paul Feyerabend s and there are your reddit atheists which the HN crowd tend towards, who simplify all complex relations in the world to Scientific, Testable, Linear logic. It may as well be as a result of the education system or the Industrial Revolution, but that is the prevalent logic in the world. Unfortunately we do not live in a time of philosophy anymore
Not the author you're replying to but I don't understand this reply at all? What variables? What oversimplifying?
They simply said
> Why do you imagine yourself you be in competition with others while doing hobbies? Do you not find pleasure in the doing?
Which... I don't understand how that is oversimplifying. If your hobby is golf are you unable to enjoy golf because you're not as good as the pros? If your hobby is music can you not enjoy it because you aren't going to win a Grammy award?
If you enjoy programming or working on something an LLM can do... can't you just enjoy doing it without an LLM? Heck there are plenty of people that will probably seek it out because of how many people hate AI being used in programming.
>I'm sorry, but this is not realistic.
It's realistic to want to be competitive. But as soon as your "hobby" becomes competitive, at least in this sense, it ceases to be a true hobby. It effectively just becomes work.
Nothin' wrong with the OP feeling disheartened by AI taking away his "hobby"/job, but AI will never be able to take away a "true" hobby because a "true" hobby is something where such external factors are irrelevant.
You'll notice that people who lift weights, run marathons, maintain a garden, tinker with models, etc., are effectively immune to AI. An AI won't lift your weights for you or tend to your garden for you. Maybe one day it could technically do that, but it doesn't matter, because you simply wouldn't have it do that for you. And it wouldn't matter if AI is doing that for others, because you're not competing with others. You're doing it for yourself.
> All my fun hobby projects are just jokes
I exercise/lift weights, and you should too. My reps/effort/weight/PRs are a joke. I'm ~50% percentile on strengthlevel.com despite really fucking trying for ~6yrs now.
Many people are better than me at the EXACT SAME THING that I'm trying, at my bodyweight/age/sex. It doesn't discourage me. There is always room to improve. I track every workout, go to RPE 8-9, and try to do progressive overload. Seeing the numbers go up helps. I know it won't continue into infinity, especially as the decades go on... but yknow, I'm building a mentality here, not just a body. And when the weights go down, I'll be in the correct mental space for it.
I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting. I'd rather be doing ANYTHING else. But I do it anyway. I think it teaches me things about life.
The only true goal is to grow and be better than yesterday. Effort is the reward.
> I'm ~50% percentile on strengthlevel.com
That's not the population. It is the average among other weightlifters which is where you would expect to be. Most of the population can't do a pull up.
It helps to know how achy the body gets without it. In my case, the back pain I had from desk work is entirely gone now. If you focus on the form rather than reps and getting through it, paired with some good music, you can reach a focus state. There are off days of course, but I'm surprised that I enjoy it much more than I used to, where my motivation dropped off quickly due to being externally motivated (visible gains). Now it's kind of cool to just see your ability change over time, better balance, capability to do more advanced exercises, etc.
Hehe yeah. Perhaps I exaggerate with "I _loathe_ every. single. minute. of weightlifting." More precisely, I never _look forward_ to a workout.
I don't hate every squat. In fact, it's (I can't believe I'm saying this) somewhat satisfying in the moment whenever I do decide to go RIR=0. I'm wiped, but like, in a "hell yeah I did that" way.
But starting a session? I'm still as reticent as I was on day 1 lol. Maybe someday I'll pick up a sport or something as the others suggest, but I love programming too much to pick up other hobbies >_>
Hear hear! It took me a bit but I've reached the point where I'm enjoying just "growing". I think we grew up in a world that molded us to compete, and to judge ourselves based on others, but I think with AI we're going to reach a point where our hobbies are going to be just seeing what we can accomplish for ourselves.
I have multiple herniated discs in my back so working out isn't possible. The V.A. wouldn't help with it either... But thanks for the suggestion! I'll be going the way of the people in the article so ya'll enjoy what you got! Many of us have nothing. :)
Perhaps my advice was too narrow/specific to my situation. If you can't deadlift, then don't. But there are many other things you can do, as the other commenters have suggested.
But if you're in the mentality of _not wanting_ to have anything, then all the advice in the world will bounce off you.
My suggestion, then, is to work on that mentality. Do something to get you anything, to get you out of that "Many of us have nothing" mindset. Build momentum. Physically doing something is often what it takes to break a mental barrier. The mind spirals and digs a hole, especially at night. But you get to participate in life/society/people during the day, which is why doing bodily things affects the mind and can break its loops.
You won't "win" on the first attempt. But you'll make progress. And the real win-condition is to keep playing.
The first step is always the hardest. I wish you the best.
Try doing some sports as well, I do weightlifting, but I do bouldering as well with friends, it is not only fun it also develops your strength in a kind of complementary way to lifting (also increases you stats on balance and other related stuff)
50th percentile on there is pretty strong! I've also lifted for around six years and I'm very light so my raw numbers are terrible but I'm still proud of them
I feel ya.
Most of my friends from high school and college are dead from random cancers, or drugs, or both.
I used to love skimming the new preprints on arXiv in the morning but now the signal is buried LLM drivel.
The one hobby I have that is kinda LLM-proof for now is speedrunning. Tool-assisted speedruns have always had their own categories for decades, and even if the LLMs or their descendants are used for routing or glitch hunting there’s still an element of human execution.
Happy to hear that. What are you speedrunning?
I like JRPGs from the early 2000s. I haven’t settled on one that I like enough to specialize in yet. It’s a bit of a time commitment, as you can imagine.
I feel like so many devs forget:
1. How utterly dogshit the vast majority of code is.
2. How utterly dogshit some of the most important or famous products and services are under the hood.
So what if LLMs can do something better? Our entire field and industry has been built on 'good enough'. God knows how many programming 'masterpieces' are on Github with 0 stars and 0 users.
I am more excited about programming by hand now more than ever. While I do not know what the future has in store for us in terms of careers, I still think I will always program by hand for fun just because I enjoy the feel of the flow-state/getting lost in something.
The things that motive me to stick around are holding the people ruining this world to account, documenting it and trying to thwart their efforts, a curiosity in seeing just how bad the climate crisis gets (how do we react, can it wake us from our stupor), and a desire to learn and help others (whether volunteering or just life advice). An absurdist lens helps provide some levity and not take things so seriously.
I had to step back from my career to focus on a mobility issue and at this point I don't know if the job path will continue to be there or even if I care. I'm focusing on small pleasures for now - cup of tea, exercise, peace and quiet. Music and film help provide a sense of meaning and catharsis.
I would have guessed middle-aged men and women, not just men. I think the reason is being the sandwiched generation.
Most of us had/are having kids late. Now our parents are old/getting old and in need of our support. Along with that, parenting expectations have never been higher. So between shuttling kids from one thing to another all week, and taking parents to medical and other appointments, there isn’t much time or energy left to enjoy anything. It’s exhausting.
Combine that with someone already depressed, and any unfortunate trigger could push them over the edge. It’s partly anecdotal and some of what I’ve observed.
Thanks for this comment, because I think it's probably the only comment I've read where the hypothesis at least matches what is seen in the graph in the article, as it's really only men ages 45-64 who have seen a recent rise. Rates for younger men 25-44 have held steady for about the past 20 years and are significantly down since the mid 90s and early 00s. And yes, this is an all time high for men 45-64, but that's following a large dip for this age group around 95-2005, and the current rate is only slightly above where it was in 1980. And rates are significantly down compared to rates 30 years ago for men older than 65.
Middle aged family men are kinda invisible. The government only sees them when it needs taxation. Kids only see them when they need money. His wife ignores him too, or rather, they ignore each other as roommates.
They can’t escape because all those legal and moral responsibilities. They have to wait patiently until retirement —- if their hearts allow them to live that long.
I'm 40 and am accepting I will be single forever. I'm in shape / constantly lifting weights, dress well, work hard on maintaining a good attitude, and am financially stable etc. But not a great face, and extremely skinny (Think Oppenheimer or Bin Laden), am not funny or charismatic, and am not into dogs. Dating is a kick in the butt. Women don't "Feel the spark"
>> Dating is a kick in the butt
DON'T DO ONLINE DATING. Online dating has wrecked mating except for the most attractive 5%. Online dating is mostly a looks competition as first step. And you are saying you don't have the looks to win that game, so you need to play a different type of mating game.
Go to meetups instead via meetup.com and also look for local group activities happening on EventBrite - don't make finding a partner the focus or even the objective - go to a ton of meetups doing the things you love doing.
People form relationships doing common interests and having shared experiences. Have shared experiences with people and take finding a partner off the agenda - just enjoy the company of others. You never know what might happen but don't go looking for it.
I can tell you this for sure - many women are looking for a partner of character - someone kind who actually wishes to engage in relationship - a genuine person - and if time is taken to form relationship well in advance of the "will you be my girlfriend" pressure, then how you look is very often just not an issue. Have you noticed how when you get to know someone you see their character as much as their outward appearance? You might need to let people learn who you are gently and over time.
As for being charismatic or funny, as Oscar Wilde said: Be yourself - everyone else is taken.
I have a number of family and friends who met online through video games or through online matchmaking websites (and one even through a dating app, starts with an H).
Successful, long term, loving and happy relationships. Not top 5% most attractive people. Mostly nerds, some overweight, some not.
This is excellent advice.
The best thing you do is to just grow your network until you find someone you like.
Whenever I go out, I always collect phone numbers and contacts if I can.
Before you know it, you have 100s of people on your phone. Befriending women is also excellent, they can introduce you to other women if they feel like you are worthy!
A helpful thought for me was that literally everyone could reject you, except one person, and that's all you need is just that one person. Also along with that principle, maybe 99% of people actually aren't a good match for me, so if I mostly don't "click" with other people, that's totally fine — I don't know if I would want to be with 99% of possible people myself even if they were interested in me. It's just about finding the right kind of person that's similar to you. People with unique attributes may find someone else with the same unique attributes, or the other person may possess unique attributes that might somehow be a good fit for your unique attributes.
Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
If you don't know what to do, try to get involved with helping others in some way. It can be rewarding and give you a broader perspective on life.
> Just do other things you like and don't worry about women. Relationships bring heartache and grief a good percentatge of the time anyway. Being engaged in things you like doing will bring you into contact with others and friendships or more may develop. But don't do them with that expectation.
I can confirm that this is how I am generally happy in life as a single. Underrated advice.
I heard that before when I just started dating. I would say don't worry about the outcome (especially pertaining to one person - you know close to nothing about them early on anyway), just try to connect with people. In my case, it would've helped calm my nerves, which were a hindrance. I've been with my partner for 8 years. A given outcome is never preordained and you don't need everyone to like you, just the one that you click with if you don't let rejection discourage you.
being funny and charismatic are something it is possible to practice, same as lifting weights. From what you say, sounds like a high leverage thing to look into
How are you extremely skinny? Do you have a digestive issue or something?
I struggled with weight gain for many years due to crippling IBS but I found some relief while bulking from a certain probiotic. (Got lucky - dozens of things I tried including fodmap, etc. never worked. That said, the probiotic only helps - not solves... and doesn't solve my absorption issues)
Surgery, steroids, and a serious bulk are in order if you're serious.
Great question! No medically diagosed/diagnosable condition for better or for worse; someone's got to represent the 3σ end of the normal distribution right?
I can make the pounds go up or down in a few weeks by eating more or less, but it goes mostly to the gut (Skinny fat = probably the worst look), and just enough to pad the arm muscles so it looks like I've never been to the gym in my life! Lately have just been embracing it and staying lean (Looks like 12% maybe?) while working out as much as I can stand.
I was about to do the steroids... (low dose test) I suspect that would genuinely fix it. But when I got the blood test back, test was smack in the middle of the normal range! So would have to shop around a bit, and trying not to lose my hair. But may still do it. A bulk counter-intuitively is not the move because it would just put me back in skinny-fat land.
I am funny and at least somewhat charismatic but I'm gay and gay dating is simply broken. Both online and physical places focus on quick, cheap, sexual encounters. Meeting dudes outside of gay spaces results in max 5% chance that dude is also gay, which is a pathetic thing to be working with. I'm really not convinced that this life is worth living.
The most terrifying realization is that I've already spent pretty much half of my life yearning for love and not getting it. Even if I magically get married soon, it'll feel like a consolation prize.
That is a great anecdote/perspective to hear, although depressing. My working model was that gay dating is completely different from straight dating; the dynamics which I lament don't apply, but... different from a bad scenario doesn't mean a good one, which I think is going on!
It's interesting to see this on the HN frontpage alongside an article about how American's social activity has steeply declined over the last 30 years [1]. To me these are very much related. We have less and less community than ever.
Then, at the same time, other aspects of our lives -- family raising and career -- are trickier than ever. Family raising these days takes more time than ever [2] (which admittedly is good and bad). Career growth in the era of stagnant wages has been tough for many fields of work, and AI threatens many of the remaining ones.
It's hard to feel fulfilled these days: our social lives are poor, and we're constantly busy doing things that don't necessarily help us get ahead.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50089921 [2] https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2026/01/09/millenni...
44, unemployed since July, on a cross country train trip trying to decide if it is worth going on. Stood on a bridge a bit too long the other day just wondering what the point is.
It is over for a lot of us in IT. It isn't going to get better, it is going to get worse very quickly. Rather than tell myself a convenient lie, I'd rather try to figure out why to keep living in a world like this.
Anyone going through the same thing, I hope you find something worth living for.
Keep going man, switch countries, never call it done.
You never know what awaits behind the corner.
My older brother killed himself nearly 20 years ago at the age of 50. I don't think he ever considered himself successful. He had financial problems, alcoholism, and was lonely without any lasting relationships. When his resources were exhausted he just ended his life. There was nothing in the estate of value since his assets, such as they were, were less than tax liability he had accumulated. The owner of the house he had been renting tried to get us siblings to pay for repairs and cost of disposal, but we demurred (and told the court we'd be happy if that owner was named executor; they declined the honor.) I think his car just disappeared off the street one day, probably towed to an abandoned car lot and auctioned. At least the state recouped some of the owed taxes that way.
I am not much of a gamer and sure as hell don't keep up with many people that I gamed with 20 years ago but there was one guy that I would talk with ever few years. I talked with him and a few months later he was gone. I don't know why his suicide hit me so hard. Maybe because I connect him to a different phase of my life. Maybe because he was the guy who was the life of chat. I don't know.
What I do know is that I wish he could have known how many people would miss him.
I’m college educated, have a successful career doing things that I enjoy to a decent degree, have a wonderful house, wife and kid. If you showed my life to my younger self and asked “would you take this life?” I would have answered every single time wholeheartedly “yes! I’m living the dream!”
But I only recently truly accepted that the life I am living (and have created for myself and family) is actually the dream. We so often miss the greatest times in our lives because we are too focused on the unknowns of the future.
This rings true for me - I wish I could go back and tell my younger self not to prevaricate over trivialities. Maybe it's rose colored glasses but those times feel very idyllic otherwise.
The graph shows that suicides overall are down from 30 years ago, while the same cohort that was higher in 1985-2005 (25-44) is now higher in 2005-2025 (45-64). Perhaps there is something about the generation more than the situation or the age of the individual.
I am 43 and only in the last few years have things turned better. I want to say that life is tough for different people from different parts of the world. For various reasons. But overall we have a set of systems that do not care.
The lack of friendship, care, love cannot be eased with money. I used to be crazy about startups. I used to want to live in New York (I am from Kolkata). I had a great run in my twenties but I crashed many years ago. Living in Germany helped a lot. I realized I was not loved or cared for. By myself mostly.
My parents love me but my dad has mental health issues which took a really bad toll on my childhood and teen years. I swept away the need for a love and care and replaced it with money. Many of us are doing this. The system needs most of us to slave. Now, I have been living the village life for about 6 years. I moved my parents as well. We have farms. I still write software, well, mostly generate them with LLMs.
There is a sense of purpose here that I started to feel. Over these last years, I have become more calm than I ever was. Happier, in a way I notice, every day. With less money than I ever had. Life is not about lots of achievements. We need meaning, love, purpose, care, friendships. We need slows walks, flowing water, walk in the rain, healthy food with zero labels. We need to grow our crops, care for animals, raise kids as a village.
I know I am typing this on a computer. But I no longer work for any tech company. I have a small consultancy client. I live as per a typical countryside routine. Most of my (whatever little savings) money is now invested in our farms where I work a few hours everyday, on time. Animals, dirt, mud, poop, crops, cleaning. All of it. Connected to how life is supposed to be. I used to hate glass buildings, still do.
Concrete, glass and everything about artificial spaces makes me sick. I am just one person, I do not have some research paper. But I know how I feel today vs a decade ago. Hope it helps.
I am not suicidal and I am lucky to have loving people who I also love around. That said, with all the rapid changes in the software engineering industry and in life in general, I sometimes wonder what I am doing with my life and why.
It's like plenty of things are happening by inertia, but none of them bring any joy or make lots of sense. In such moments, I really envy people who have the courage to work on something they truly believe in. I have quite a few people to take care of, which requires financial resources, so I am not there yet.
Makes a lot of sense to me. If you're young and things aren't going so well then at least you can have hope that you'll be able to turn it around. You have time on your side. That all goes away when you start to get to middle age. You're locked in by your earlier choices.
Now I'm here staring at AI with the reality that if it makes my skills irrelevant I'll have no fallback, and I'll be at an age where reskilling is extremely hard and I'm still nowhere close to retiring.
Tomorrow a article, with the addition "... Women most affected".
I see this a lot speaking to friends and just in general online discourse. Too much news and social media. Perhaps it will all go to shit. AI is definitely changing the entire world, our industry being the first on the chopping block (maybe).
But, what can you do. There's always been injustice in the world. You just never used to hear about it 24/7/365.
Now you wake up and read about it on the little screen, later you see it on the big screen, talk about it at work, then go to bed and read about it on the little screen again. I have friends who can't even talk to me for 30 minutes without just bringing the entire mood down with doomerism.
Idk, I just do sports, work and spend time with whoever I can in whatever little free time I have left over. I had to forcibly block every news site and social media via an app otherwise I'd get addicted again and become a cynic. Reddit is by far the worst for me, insta is 2nd.
Unlike 95% of people I speak to I actually love my life and enjoy my work, and just hope that AI doesn't steal that from me.
Growing up as a first generation immigrant in a country with some of the worst inequality in the world taught me to just ignore everything but what you need to do.
This is something I sometimes feel guilty about now that I have a comfortable life. But, I feel like trading that ignorance for constant awareness just leads to anxiety and guilt and is a poor trade I don't have to make.
Edit: also this is just 1 factor. There are other factors like actual poverty, loneliness etc. I don't meant to put forth the idea that it's purely the 24 hour news cycle and social media that's to blame, just 1 aspect I see most often in my life.
In my circle, I've objectively had both the best and the worst life. I can tell when people are thinking about suicide because they reach out to find out if I've done myself in yet lol.
For them, I keep going. I think because both the best and worst times in my life were roughly due to my own decisions, I always have the idea that I will get back to the good times.
But for beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders.
There have been plenty of periods in history with millenarian challenges, but I don't think there has been a period in history with so many different existential threats and uncertainties happening at the same time.
Between climate change, AI, economic instability, political catastrophes, various actual and impending wars, social media bot farms and trad media content farms, and entire industries that exist to lie about what's happening and pressure everyone to work and consume and live an ideal lifestyle with ideal productive values - there's quite a lot going on.
I graduated college in 1992.
2 male friends from college died by their own hand within the last decade.
By most measures, they were successful professionals.
I think part of the problem in that instance, might be "success" being necessary but not sufficient for "surviving and thriving"; and unfortunately sometimes that isn't explained along the way to even people who become conventionally successful (but, perhaps we can try to improve an awareness of the issue going forward for future gens)
I believe every death is unique and not a statistic.
However, since the article is about "men" and "suicide". There is substantial evidence that suggest women (especially young girls) attempt suicide more than men... while men are are more likely to die from a suicide [1]
Does gender have a role in suicide? Maybe. But I would hesitate to generalize too much.
[1] I asked chatgpt to back up my claims. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
My understanding is that the disparity in "successful" suicides is because women tend to choose methods that can be reversed if you catch them quickly enough (like poison), while men tend to choose violent methods that are over quickly (like self inflicted gunshots).
This article is from the UK, where firearms only account for 2.5% of completed suicides. In both the US and the UK, men are generally more likely to succeed even after accounting for their chosen method, e.g. they take larger overdoses within the same drug class:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01650...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle...
Before everyone jumps in with their favorite ad-hoc reason, take a look at the graph first. The headline is technically true, but barely. For the 45-64 age group, the suicide rate is barely different than it was in 2012 and 2018, and about the same as it was in 1985 (24 vs 22-23 per 100k.) Seems like all age groups have held steady (10-24 25-44 and 75+) or trended up a bit (45-64 and 64-75) since the early 2000's, after dipping from the 1980s.
I am in my late 40's and I am struggling more than I ever have in my entire life. I have a great marriage and 3 children and I have a good job with good income. I have nothing to be unhappy about.
And yet my children are grown now and mostly gone. I feel a profound sense of loss.
I feel like I'm entering the age where I'm a prime candidate for any myriad of diseases and I get so anxious every time I get a symptom. I go to the Dr. a lot. I went to the ER twice every year in the past 3 years. Ironically, its occurred to me that if I do have something terminal, I don't have to go on like this. And I like the thought of that. I'm both terrified of death and also really looking forward to it.
I used to enjoy my work, but AI has made it so that I just kind of show up and ask it for things. Anyone could do what I do. There's no sense of accomplishment in anything.
The worst thing about this is that I have every reason to be the happiest person here. So the fact that I feel the way that I do actually makes me a pretty bad person and that makes the whole thing feel a whole lot worse.
Hey friend. I’m right there with you. Everything you said resonates with me.
I’m curious, are you fully remote?
Have you tried anything to shake things up?
Highest among non-married middle-aged men or all middle-aged men?
Man this is for real. I’m 46 and I tell my therapist and my friends that I’m not suicidal but like… can we wrap this shit up already? (A tasteless joke stolen from Tom Segura)
I have been meditating on WHY I feel this way. On paper things are pretty good. I’m married. I have a job that is safe for now. I have kids. Two dogs. A house. Two cars.
But I feel really lonely and unseen and like I am a disappointment to everybody including myself. Like it makes sense I’m unseen because I’m unexceptional.
So I’ve done some things that have helped a little including scheduling lunches with friends and coworkers, more frequent date nights (especially double date nights), working out (setting and achieving even small pointless goals like mile time, distance, weight lifted, etc really helps).
All of that and it feels like I’m bailing water out of a sinking ship. It is barely enough to stay afloat and heaven help me if I skip a day or make a mistake…
It is hard to imagine doing this for another 30 years…
I used to think Soma was one of the more disturbing ideas in Brave New World. These days, I understand the temptation a little better.
As I’ve reached middle age I’ve realized that controlling my suffering keeps me grounded.
The suffering will come out no matter what everyday for me personally no matter how comfortable the day is.
For years now I force it out with intention every day. I push to a discomfort for an hour or more a day usually doing some aerobic activity.
When my body starts failing as I get older I’ll need to explore other options but this is where I am now.
Surprisingly my brain has been rewired over the years to look forward to this controlled suffering and counterintuitively it’s made all of life much more enjoyable.
It can be scary and hard to approach, but I would think you're not unexceptional or unimportant to your loved ones. Maybe you should talk to your wife about this at some point? It sounds like you're starting on this with date nights too which does seem good.
I hope you can find something that helps you feel like you're not just treading water, though.
I see you, and I feel the same way. You have articulated the dread of the monotonous sisyphean slog of being middle-aged.
Yeah, or that it is easier to identify the slog with the hindsight of middle age?
I'm not a Buddhist, but because of the stressors of my previous career I sometimes joke that I accidentally recreated the fundamental tenets of Buddhism in order to not wash out. One of the things I've come to realize is that the slog feeling you describe is something like the concept of 'samsara' or "cycle of aimless drifting, wandering or mundane existence" per the smarter people that edited the Wikipedia article. But that it's still possible to find meaning and satisfaction within this paradigm.
It’s so apt that you mention it life feeling sisyphean. I was just feeling that way while walking the dogs yesterday.
Maybe another tool would be to try to mix it up more… so each day feels different.
Especially at work where we have always been busy but lately there is no break, no time for modernization or learning or technical debt, we just move from one epic to the next epic, no fanfare, no launch parties. Just each of us at home working alone.
You have kids. Got to live on for them.
at 40 I became a woman and never been happier
I had a friend who transitioned and it was such a delight to witness the transformion. Before they were the most flaky of friends, always flitting from on thing to the next, not stable, couldn't hold a job or hobby together for very long. Then they finally transitioned and my god the difference was night and say. They're stable now, they're reliable they're just fun to be around. They've finished a second degree and have held the same job for eight years now.
It's crazy how much not being at home in their body disrupted every part of their life
Became? Do you not consider yourself to have always been so?
(Out of curiosity, if you don't mind the question).
Serious congratulations. I understand untreated gender dysphoria is a huge predictor of suicide.
Imagine if we had the technology to actually do this!
It advances every so often. We might have womb transplants in the next decade, surgical techniques get more and more refined, etc.
"etc" is doing a lot of work there; what in your view would constitute success here - something that would allow us to say "we did it, we now have the technology to freely change our sex at will"?
It depends on how you define sex. Hormones cover most expressions from chromosomes already. Skull reconstruction could be better? Maybe some way to really rework skeletons and adjust height and hips or shoulders? But that's more on the cosmetic end.
Or if you want at will, it would be good to have some way to radically speed up changes. You're still looking at 3-8 years for some things.
Late 40s here, on antidepressants for the anxiety side more than depression.
I can totally see why this is highest in my demographic.
An underlying cause is quiet desperation, there are elements of failure in ones' own life, perhaps pressure caused deliberately by others as they step on you to get to the top. Perhaps it's the fact you start to notice death, your parents, family, and friends. You also see the beginning of your own aged based health decline.
Until society can support genx and older with their goals at this age, instead of telling them to get talking in men's groups, or saying it's alright to show emotions to a generation that grew up without this culture, this will probably continue.
I don't have an answer to fix it, but what I do feel would help is if was treated as a high risk stage of life without stigma. So 45+ men or menopausal women, can take time off to adjust, spend more time with family and friends, and it be treated as normal process, like a sabbatical or maternity leave or just a wind down from society like partial retirement.
This will never happen obviously because it means as a society we have to have a better welfare state and drop the ingrained idea that if you're not working you're a problem (not working is NOT the same as not contributing or benefiting to society, but people conflate this).
Perhaps the AI age will force us to fix that due to mass unemployment, the way COVID kick started remote working.
I am early fifties, and due to some sort of intrusive thoughts OCD-ish variant of ADHD, I have probably thought about suicide 25,000 times in the last ten years (not an overestimate). It is a several-times-per-day thing, if it’s not all day. Sometimes only an intrusive flicker, sometimes very much not. I have spent the last year or two dealing with burnout thinking about it regularly in depth; usually not for now, but for maybe ten years time when I believe it will be necessary.
I am a single man with no dependents who is struggling to work due to burnout, and I perceive that we are really not far off a world where young people will take seriously the idea that older people like me have had our time. I do not expect to be able to work for much longer because why would they let us keep our jobs or get new ones when we are taking away theirs? What can we teach them when we have built the tools that will destroy their livelihoods and wrecked the environment in which they live? Why should they listen to us at all?
Leaving a bit early may be the morally responsible thing for me to do. Understanding that living until I am dependent on care from the young is not going to be a good time when we are a despicable, despised generation, it’s an oddly liberating thought.
The thing is, someone that perceives these problems for young people is someone that should stick around and keep doing what they do to fix it.
You are the exact opposite of the people that need to leave early. Stick around and wait for when we come out the other side. I think these kids are going to figure it out, with our help.
We are not coming out the other side if we are not prepared to relinquish power (and wealth) to the young; can you imagine Gen X ever doing that? Look at who our “tech titans” are. Look at who we gave power to. Our most significant accomplishment is the PayPal Mafia; we funded and empowered all the worst ideas of millennials.
(Granted, millennials have to reckon with the AI CEOs being theirs, technically.)
Well, if you look around at this world, there ain't much hope for the future.
I wrote an article about youth mental health for my substack recently that touched on this. The suicide rate for the 50-59 demographic is far higher than the general population, but it collapses once you hit retirement age. If I had to guess, social supports for seniors plays a role.
The Founders Guide to Suicide: https://anthonydavidadams.substack.com/p/the-founders-guide-...
I wrote this about overcoming the suicidal urge, what I learned beating an “incurable” diagnosis without meds, and how it’s informed my coaching of some of the most successful unicorn founders in history.
Most people that age right now have no idea where they are going or where they will end up. And not even in their delusions can they pretend the world will somehow magically care about them in another 30 years.
Personally I have given up on hoping for a nice planned and well executed life up through retirement. My own skill set just isn't valued enough by the markets to set myself up separated from the festering human pits. Im just going to go for as long as I can just to see how things go at this point. I always did enjoy thrillers and tragedies, it sucks to be in one but it is better than being in nothing at all. And if the world just keeps getting crazier, maybe ill just join them in being crazy and maybe hopefully go out with a bang near the end.
Guys should go back to the basics.
Back when we were in high school we were aiming to do the least amount of work to get through the year and spend the rest of the time hanging out with our mates.
A big part of our fault is also that we accept to get dragged by women into a territory that is not ours which is made up of large amount of introspection, extremely fine margins between good times and awful times and walking on eggshells with regards to social cues , the avoidance of social faux passes, planning years and years into the future down to the smallest detail .
That's the perfect recipe for depression for guys
We should go back to the basics and hangout with our mates trying to do the least amount of work as possible, play sports, banter with each other, take everything much less seriously and when we feel the need to have sex shoot for ONS or visit escorts or prostitutes and then go back to our mates.
Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure from my understanding of human history and primate evolution that "long-term sexual/romantic partner" is, in fact, one of the basics.
sexual maybe
romantic? really?
I had an assumption that most of human history, marriage was more of an arranged marriage thing. With a lot of "women being treated as property", "heirs required for transfer of wealth", etc notation.
And there were also societies that were polyamorous in nature?
We are in a new world now, there is no need to force traditions (or worse yet, false traditions) that frankly doesn't seem to work anymore
Forget human history, that's the resultant of the median behavior optimized by Nature to produce the continuation of the specie.
At the individual level the pinnacle of happiness is teenage years and early adulthood.
Why wouldn't a rational individual not seek to prolong the behaviors in which one engaged during the pinnacle of happiness
Sucks when friends dies. Cancer, accidents and so on is just terrible, but suicide really sucks. One of my old friends ended his life a couple of years ago. It really hit me.
Ancillary comment, From TFA:
I understand the urge to do something on a large scale, but immediately pivoting to "the government" to solve personal mental health crises seems like a terrible idea.This was a tough article for me. I'm only alive because I have to be. I have one family member left in poor health, and they depend on me, but when they are gone, I don't really see the point of sticking around. I am simply sticking around for them.
The last thing I will do is die alone, or worse, confined to a nursing home, abused by underpaid staff. Yes: I have tried over 15 medication's, therapy, you name it. I came to the conclusion a few years ago that accepting that my life has an end, and they I will make that decision to end it, has been comforting. I feel like it's the only, perhaps last control, I might ever have
It's not surprising that murder-suicides are popular in the US amongst this age group, responsibility can be crushing.
Any breakdown by race?
At the end of the day we (men) are the ones expected to provide, to win over the women, to keep the marriage from falling apart, to keep the kids safe. And at any point we fail in our career or one of these things we are left staring into the abyss with no one to help us but ourselves. This is why I reject a lot of liberal views. Even when we tried equality, all we did was take away power from the man that is still expected to do everything.
I’m bored of how shocked people are about this. It’s been going on decades now. Think of all the great and/or famous men that have killed themselves in the last 60 years. It stacks up quick. No one cares.
To anyone with a degree not in software, you can pivot to a hands-on job. I'm a technician for factory equipment. AI is not replacing me for a long time.
I'm an absolute doofus in the physical realm. No hand eye coordination of any kind. No common sense. No social skills or ability to read and understand humans.
In any other era I would have been a useless drain on society and yet I happened by an incredible stroke of luck to be born at a time when the few skills I do have perfectly aligned with a career niche. It's been a good few decades. Now I just go back to being a useless nobody but at least I have my memories and my investments.
I'm staring down the barrel of this particular prospect lately. I struggled through my twenties living with family until I finally managed to get my bachelor's degree and a job with a really solid company/team/product line. That silo of the business was then sold off to private equity, and it was fine for a while, but now the owners have been ensorcelled by the song of a C-list "rock star CEO" who has no respect for the team or the product line and very definitely has no sense of where the inertia lies when he keeps jerking the steering wheel of this particular vehicle. It's fucking exhausting to have to hold my tongue in meetings when I so badly want to say "it's late because you decided to delay it when it was about to be done, and then a couple months later you decided that it was urgent and had to be done ASAP, and then you decided to reassign staff to an initiative that you just made up with no actual product definition. But that would get me fired.
Remember, class, because this will be on the test: capitalism is the superior economic system because it elevates people who allocate capital efficiently. Just don't ever look too closely at the input and output functions of any such definition of "efficiency" (hint: they conveniently tend to elevate people who are skilled at flattering capital owners).
https://archive.ph/sBfx5
Who can blame them?
After having failed romantically one too many times and having an average dev job AI will probably take from me, that won't allow me to FIRE for 6 more years even if I can keep it, life's not fun for me at 35 already, how will it be at 55, all wrinkled up, frail, probably cancer stricken and with no future potential left?
Go to the gym. I'm 60 and in the best shape and strongest I've ever been in my life.
Less than 10% of 55 year old men have ever had cancer in their life. And many of them were diagnosed before 35. So if you don't already have cancer, your odds are much less than 10% that you'll have cancer by 55.
And if you're wrinkled and frail at 55 years old then that's your own fault. Put on some sunscreen and go for a bike ride.
besides haven't you heard? AI will cure cancer
57 here
Yeah ....all frail and falling apart here.
Seriously,look at the age at which people run for president. We got a guy whose been living his best life by stealing from the US public in his late 70s. 50 is the new 30 after all
You're talking about FIRE and at the same time griping. Everyone has their own disappointment to deal with in life, but you might consider yourself privileged if you're able to retire at all, let alone retire early in your 40s.
bruv that's some serious cope!
but how does that effect women?
We live in a winner-takes-all world. Either you are compounding success, or you are compounding failure. Middle-age is when all potential has been spent and where you are is essentially where you will be until you die. Some middle aged men are billionaires with access to nearly anything they could want. Others have seen only repeated failures, accelerated by an economy that doesn't reward anyone but the most nimble, intelligent, or sociopathic.
Just got “over the hill” here. It’s…complicated, but not at all surprising on the whole.
My friends who are older are pessimistic as fuck. Several have been unemployed for lengthy stretches due to ageism in American hiring practices, which has resulted in their life crumbling around them as they lack the resources for basic upkeep anymore. I see that and shudder for myself, wondering if we’ll finally get this sorted before I hit my 50s or if this is just going to be a shitty fucking thing for the foreseeable future.
Social activity is hard for middle-aged men. We spend several hours a day commuting to and from work, which eats into our social budgets. Hard to host dinners, attend game nights, or go on dates when 80% of your day is spoken for work alone in some capacity (preparing for, getting to, performing, commuting home), which leaves us isolated. Most of our peers have paired off, so they have a stronger support structure - yet they too disappear at alarming rates.
At every conceivable intersection for the past fifty years, we’ve chosen to make life more hostile and less comfortable. I’m tired of feigning surprise at what, at least to me and my circles, is so sickeningly obvious.
How did previous generations working similar number of hours manage to have much richer social lives?
Wives organizing social events, I think is part of the conventional wisdom? And more communal work and eating together after work etc.
This. And also commutes were radically shorter than they are today, with more commuter services in many smaller cities than exist today.
We shifted from a sole-provider/homemaker model of couples to a dual-income-required model, at the same time our choices on car dependency and suburban sprawl came back to bite us in the ass. The working from home era was great for socializing because we could agree on small group nights if we were all feeling well, knowing we didn’t have huge commutes ahead of us after work and with the extra money in our pockets from lowered work costs; RTO mandates killed that again, as did the sudden jump in real estate costs, inflation, and stagnating wages in the face of AI investment.
That’s just the average, too. For edge cases like me in unorthodox households or living arrangements, it’s even harder.
Sometimes I think joining a cult wouldn’t be too bad right about now. Hear me out: a bunch of people pool money to buy a massive amount of land somewhere and then building everything they need by hand: homes, farms, etc. and everyone has a strong sense of community from daily interaction and shared purpose, with regular rituals to keep a sense of stability. If we must work by manual labor, it is more satisfying to work to benefit those around you than for increasingly worthless dollars. No smartphones or thinking machines allowed.
There are many, already available to join
That sir is a commune not a cult.
I've had this thought many times, though a big part of a cult is like being employed: they let you be in the cult because they can pay you less than what you generate for them.
if you no longer needed money, how much would you really need to be paid?
get a dog?
Yes because when you are struggling to take care of yourself, piling on vet bills and food and more responsibility, and less social time will really help.
Depression hates a moving target. The responsibility for exercising my dog is tremendous for my mental (and physical) health.
Worrying over another being you are responsible for and thinking less about yourself and your own situation...just might help with depression I would think.
And nothing increases the desire for other people to be sociable with you than walking a dog.
I love my dog but absent my partner's desires, I don't think I would've taken it on. The cost, attention, potential behavioral issues, the prospect of losing them eventually are not for everyone.
I'm working on this actually. I had a dog for 12 years and she really kept me going. Saved me. But she died a couple years ago, literally the day after one of my parents, and it's been tough. But I'm really thinking about getting another dog; I really want to get another dog.
Go get it man, they are the best.
This is my pack: https://i.imgur.com/hnoioNy.jpeg
Get another dog. I would if I had a little garden for them. It sounds like you already know you should/want to.
I'm saving for it! The fee is $350-400 to adopt, so it will just take me a little time.
This is the way.
We all know what the problem is.
Dear HN, please stop posts like this in making to the top page. This actually normalizes the idea of suicide even with people not thinking about it. I don’t remember the book but it has been discussed a lot in psychological aspects of these news articles influencing the behaviour in them.