The anecdote about Edison setting the electric car business back by overselling a defective battery solution is interesting. I still think the $2,000 electric car is a hard sell against a $850 Model-T unfortunately. I also thought it was amusing to call a steering wheel "un-ladylike" compared to a tiller arrangement. I think that's more just early vehicles not standardizing on controls and in this case the maker guessed wrong, but they were hardly alone. The late 19th/early 20th century vehicles were full of wacky and confusing control systems.
The steering wheels of the era had a straight steering shaft that the driver had to straddle between their legs. They were considered unladylike for the same reason as bicycles. This was still an era where women competed in horse jumping competitions while riding sidesaddle to protect their modesty.
The early 20th century was a time when women no longer wanted to be ladies. They wanted to travel on their own wearing more comfortable clothes and even -gasp- have jobs.
I had the pleasure of riding around once in a Detroit Electric. To call it a tea parlor on wheels would have been an understatement. It came equipped with a flower vase, and instead of a steering wheel (how unladylike!) it came with a tiller that would sit across your lap.
These were cars for very wealthy elite women. But just as big of a deal as it was for women to drive - these cars in particular did not require a servant to start, operate, or service.
I never got any excitement from driving an electric car, with the exception of the 0-60 of the powerful ones.
But they are the smoothest commuters I have ever driven. Linear acceleration, super snappy for when you want to overtake, you never need a gas-station if have a garage.
I would take an electric over the camrys and crv’s any day.
I find fascinating the difference between people who think of cars as a tool versus a toy. And certainly for some people it simply depends on which car.
For me, all cars are a tool. I don’t really enjoy driving. Driving is a chore I have to do in order to do things I do like.
I don’t yet own an electric car, but I find them very appealing because they would eliminate a chore from my life: going to the gas station.
I do wonder what it would be like to enjoy driving for its own sake.
Same, I find it especially miserable to drive at night with how car lights have changed to brighter LEDs and people wanting larger and taller cars. Its like getting hit with multiple flash bangs.
In rural areas where car lights are the only illumination, with denser traffic I see continuous strobing and flickering by the adaptive LED and laser headlights.
For me it depends on the state of the roads. If they’re empty, I don’t mind driving and can even enjoy it. If traffic is moderate or above, my opinion of driving takes a hard nosedive.
I’m not even a wild driver. Whenever it’s safe to do so I’m in the right lane doing exactly the speed limit. I just don’t like having to deal with other drivers.
I'd guess that driving was probably more broadly enjoyable for people in the era of manual transmission. That's not to say manual transmissions are fun, but the greater degree of interactivity, control, and skill made it a more interesting and overall enjoyable experience. Also it was kind of cathartic getting up to speed somehow. Driving an automatic is just boring, outside of like others have mentioned - the insane acceleration in an EV.
Manuals on a bridge during traffic though are... unpleasant.
Even my 2011 Jeep manual transmission has hill start assist, it never rolls backwards .
Interestingly, it will roll forwards if you’re on a steep hill and trying to reverse up it. I guess it doesn’t know which way you want to go ( the computers don’t know what gear you’re in)
What I find fascinating is people who have never driven a fun car, then get an EV that has some decent acceleration. Then they talk about how fun the car is to drive and say how its the best thing ever. I see these posts all the time, and I just think... Yep, now you get what car enthusiasts have been enjoying all this time. If you just drive Rav4s and other appliances, no wonder you hate driving.
What's a fun car for you, and what parts of the driving experience do you find fun? I drive a car that's widely regarded as boring as fuck, and I love it (Toyota Auris with 1.8 HSD). I really enjoy the scenery rolling by and the problem solving part of the driving, like what roads I take and such. I also really like that the cabin is quiet (compared to my last car), so the engine / wind / etc noise doesn't stress me extra, and that I can hear my music, podcast, or own thoughts better.
I just remembered, I also have this minigame where I make the car consume as little as possible. The UI gives the avg consumption after each drive, so there's immediate feedback on how I did. I currently count 4.1-4.5 l/100 as a success (52-57 us mpg). Nicest I ever got over a meaningful distance is 3.5 l/100 (67 mpg).
You are just swapping one chore for another. Now instead of going to the gas station occasional, you have to plug it in, all the time. Or you have to go to a plugging station and sit there for a while.
...I assume that's satire? I plug in our EV once a week at home, it takes like what, 5 seconds? Maybe 10 if I'm distracted. Another 5 seconds to unplug it the following morning.
I don't drive in my day to day life but I have enjoyed things like karting or rally driving and I like sim racing video games, maybe try some of those out. Driving for fun at least for me is more about seeing what you can do with a car than anything else.
>>I never got any excitement from driving an electric car, with the exception of the 0-60 of the powerful ones.
I've owned some really powerful cars in the past, and I swear I have never had as much fun as I did when I took our little Volkswagen e-Up to the Lake District for a week, yes it only has 80bhp but only a tonne of weight and instant torque - it was sooooo much fun on these narrow tight roads, you could really push it and just enjoy every second of it. I even drove the Hardknott Pass several times back to back because it was so much fun - I'd take it over my Mercedes AMG any day, yes it was cool to do 160mph past Berlin at 4am in that, but the little 80bhp Volkswagen gives me about 20x more enjoyment in day to day driving.
I don’t miss gear changes and clutch control any more than I miss a manual choke or tuning carburettors. They were fun in a way but they were intermediate goals between me and going fast. EVs skip straight to the fast.
I never got any excitement from driving an electric car, with the exception of the 0-60 of the powerful ones.
Huh? I never got any excitement from driving any car except the powerful ones.
And I gotta say, EV6 GT 0-60 in 3 seconds for $60k with a real suspension (not that Tesla garbage) and active electronic rear differential... get it while you can. Nothing remotely close for even twice the price. Its the NSX of the 2020s.
Garbage you say? The Tesla garbage suspension that gets 0.96g vs the EV6 GTs 0.92g? Or were you comparing the $60k top of the line Kia against the $40k base model 3 instead of the performance model (still cheaper at $55k)?
On the track: The Tesla finishes a massive 6.5 seconds faster than the Kia. Despite the EV6 GT's horsepower advantage on straightaways, the Model 3 Performance utilizes its lighter weight (~4,035 lbs vs. the Kia's ~4,800 lbs) and lower center of gravity to carry vastly superior speed through VIR’s demanding technical sections, such as the famous Climbing Esses.
And they had to remove features found on lower trims like electric seats from the GT6 model because weight I guess?
I rented both for a day before buying one. The M3P is more comfortable on the street and more predictable in anger.
But if we can put aside our team spirit, yes, I agree, EVs are the performance car of choice. EVs are the fastest car under 100mph and $100k. An RS3 will beat us over 100mph and a $140k Z06 will beat us all the time. For ~60k, performance EVs can’t be beat.
Yeah I don’t know where I got that from. They are actually tied for VIR hot lap. So yay! Ah the 2022 RS3 came with sticky tires and got a better time. The main thing tho is that the RS3 can do it again and again. If it’s even a two lap race, the EVs die (to thermals).
I drove a Miata for years in the early 00's. It was one of the early models, so dramatically underpowered, but still a blast. I found it fun to drive in the exact same way bikes are fun to ride. I could hit any line around any corner, the stick shift was tight. I even learned how to heel-toe shift (even though I never got good at it)
I think it was car and driver reviewing the new corvette that said the vette was so stable and poised that to have any fun it it you’d be breaking any speed limits on backroads so if you lost control you’d probably die, and maybe you should just by a Miata instead!
Anyone who can't find fun driving in even econoboxes isn't trying. Nearly everyone will run out of skill before they run out of car on the right kind of road.
I think that, fortunately, most people don't consider the road to be a place where you're supposed to find fun driving. Perhaps for a lot of people on the road the realization that they shouldn't be pushing themselves, or their car, at anywhere near the limit kicks in long before any kind of fun starts.
I mean, I wouldn't object to having fun while doing it, but I'm pretty sure anything people would use an example of "fun" would massively increase the danger to me and everyone around me.
I thought the old (new) Top Gear episodes with celebrities in a reasonably priced car vs F1 drivers in the same car was very fascinating. The F1 drivers managing to wring that much more out of the little cheap car.
Had me spooked for a sec with a title like that until I reread it.
Quieter cars that don't smell bad are definitely an improvement especially for noise pollution, but car companies didn't care at the time as they tried to make them a necessity in American life.
Also I never got the appeal of ridiculously loud cars especially ones that just end up sounding like a bad time on the toilet.
Perhaps you haven't heard the sound of the right engine.
A 4 cylinder is very annoying.
A Detroit V8 sounds very good loud, with the large displacement and the right cam.
The most heavenly sound in the world is a Merlin V12 aircraft engine. (The yootoob videos with engine starts just cannot capture it.) There's even a book about it - "Sigh of a Merlin".
My dad was an Air Force P-51 pilot (with Merlin engine). When he passed, the local aviation museum said they'd do a memorial P-51 flight at the funeral for free, as long as I paid for the gas. Best money I ever spent.
Sometimes I'll hear the distinctive sound of the 4 engine B-17, and they'll be flying low and slow over Lake Washington. A marvelous sight and sound.
I can accept that other people enjoy the sound of loud cars, if you can accept that other people find them almost universally annoying, and would rather be listening to the far quieter sounds of birds, or the breeze in trees, or the conversation they were having.
Hmm, maybe a metaphor would help. Imagine if there was a pretty substantial subculture of people who loved wearing colorful, flashing, unbelievably bright lights on their clothes at all hours of day and night. When you're at an art museum, people will walk between you and the paintings, blinding you for several minutes as even having them in your peripheral vision made it impossible to see much of anything else. When you're walking down the street, you often need to pause what you're doing as they walk past. At home, in bed, trying to sleep? Despite your best efforts with blackout curtains, almost every night in a city, someone manages to light up your room to daylight levels for a few minutes just walking past.
Most of them, you assume, mean no harm and are just having fun and expressing themselves. But having them near you is always disruptive, and you're disinterested in discussions of how what you actually mind is the strobing from low frequencies and the lack of art in poor arrangements and not how FUCKING BRIGHT THEY ARE, TURN THAT SHIT DOWN, WE'RE TRYING TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH YOU?
And maybe you feel bad for freaking out afterward, but it just feels constant, and you understand that living in high-population places involves a certain level of tolerance of people's idiosyncracies, but at a point, it's hard not to feel like the sheer level of disruption and disregard demonstrated by a fairly small level of the population is actually deliberate and malicious.
> if you can accept that other people find them almost universally annoying
I am well aware of that. I don't drive my loud car after dark so I don't annoy the neighbors. The ones that complain I offer a ride in, they have fun, and we're both happy.
There's also a limit to enjoying the sound, and I wouldn't want to take more than a brief jaunt with it. I only drive it once a week or so.
I used to live in a neighborhood where everyone had a small lawn. When the weather warmed up, and it was the weekend, I'd open the windows. Inevitably, one of my neighbors started their lawnmower, rrrrrrr, and it would take them some ungodly amount of time to mow their lawn. They'd finish, and I'd sigh with relief. A couple minutes later, another neighbor would start up their lawn mower. Etc. Etc. From 8-8, Sat-Sun, you could not open the windows. It was intensely irritating. I was glad to leave that neighborhood.
In another neighborhood where I lived for a time, I shared a fence with my neighbor separating our backyards. He had a little yappy dog that yapped all day. All day. No respite.
I really miss the sound and smell and feedback you get from ICE. Here almost every vehicle is electric and it’s, weird. I dont have a car but a electric moped, they seriously suck compared to the ICE ones (charge every day instead of gas once a month, no control/shitty firmware: delays between breaking and gas, 1/0 power, no real granularity), oh yeah no clutch also… arghhh
I've often had the dubious pleasure of standing behind an idling CNG-powered city bus. And breathing in the exhaust tastes like... "oxygen" was my first reaction, but perhaps more like "a firehose of normal air". It's probably not recommended to breathe it for long periods, but it doesn't have that natural discouragement built-in.
They still are I think. If I had to guess what women want in a car, it's probably something easy to maintain, quiet.
I think what's unappealing to women about EVs is the unreliability with respect to range and charging availability. I struggled with my mom to charge an EV she rented for an inter-city trip and she swore off EVs for a while.
Slate truck is a good example, I saw that ad where it is like decal'd for a flower shop for example. It's pretty small and cute (I suppose electric cars are easier to customize aestheticially in terms of shape as long as you stick to the skateboard format), and the fact that it is quite different-looking than most trucks left some wondering who it's for. Mostly women I think.
Whereas men buy more trucks, and usually there is sort of a power aspect to it where they want something that feels and sounds powerful (and being a gas car is part of that), so they can race it or can pull a toy hauler or something. Women want more of a commuter, but not like a sedan, usually something more bulky like an SUV that makes them feel safe. And then like bachelors and gay guys want like a 2D coupe or a roadster or something.
But it is interesting how these niches influence the market.
It's like most of the money in every market these days is made by cornering the market a certain lifestyle and increasing markup rather than trying to produce some ultra-efficient everyman vehicle. The innovation is all in advertising and consumer control, that's how I feel about every market these days.
If GE cemented the electric car as a must-have for women of the time, then we would have seen advances battery tech and EVs decades earlier. It would eventually have become mainstream with men as well (think of how the wristwatch was originially seen as a women's accessory, back when men had pocketwatches). The real innovation is in controlling consumer sentiment.
Apparently electric cars are for women and men secure enough in their masculinity that they don't require a truck with its own zip code? This is some post.
And then some of us scratch both itches at the same time. I daily a Tesla M3P but I also bought an F150 Lightning. Which, ironically perhaps, my wife daily drives. I don't know that it qualifies for it's own zip code, but it has all the upsides of a truck with all the upsides of an EV.
Thats cool I think, the electric cars do have a lot more torque and I can see that being useful in a truck. But the F150 production was halted because it was a largely unsuccessful.
And now that it's out of production, the parts are gonna be scarce. Speaking as someone with a chevy volt that has a screwed up battery. Unless you go with a prius or a tesla something you're not gonna get a reasonably-priced battery replacement. There really ought to be a standard battery form factor for EVs...
I think if you look at something at aptera, it's really the lightest vehicles that can take advantage of electrification. I mean, they are proposing 1000-mile range, with solar panels on the back that can recover as much as 40 miles of charge a day. It would be incredible if they can pull it off.
> Seems unlikely to happen since the battery is part of a space optimization problem.
I agree, in general, but the Lightning is a counter example. It uses modules, which do not maximize usage of available space, but do make it way easier to replace just one part and not the whole pack. And it is way more plausible that replacements could economically be made in the future that fit the same footprint. Maybe using entirely different battery chemistry.
The F150 production was halted because Ford had a constraint on aluminum that capped how many F150s (of any variety) they could produce, and the Lightning had the tightest margins. It was the best selling electric truck when they pulled the plug. And Farley could see the writing on the wall -- we were headed into a (minimum) four year period where the federal government was going to actively punish anybody making technology perceived to be 'green'. Easier to switch over to something less of a political target and give over the future of cars to the Chinese. Farley drove a Chinese EV for some time as his daily driver and he knew the US manufacturers were cooked. Take a look at Australia now, that is where we are headed.
> chevy volt
Yes, GM screwed you over on that. Best case is it failing under warranty and them buying back the car. The nice thing about the battery in the Lightning is that it isn't really a bespoke pack. It's a big sealed case with 9 battery modules wired together inside. So they don't have to spin up a custom production line to make more, they just need to build boxes of the same dimensions and compatible voltages, or update the BMS calibration. This is a way easier lift than making a custom one-off battery pack for a Volt.
> if you look at something at aptera
I see a tricycle, not a car, with a small number of die-hard enthusiasts who are slowly recognizing that it is DOA. Best I can tell, it's just a grift at this point. They've been making big promises since 2006, been liquidated once already, and still haven't delivered anything. They've narrowed their definition of success to "up to 40 cars for the most enthusiastic customers", maybe in early 2027 ... if they get the funding. Riiiiight.
Well you would think so where I live. I'm the only guy I know who drives a hybrid let alone an EV, other than my friend who has a beater crz (mild hybrid).
Charging your own electric car from the wall is also a challenge here in the country unless you own your own house or are willing to pay higher-than-gas prices.
"here in the country" people don't already have outdoor 240 outlets for RV hookups and welders? "here in the country" people don't run power to their sheds and outbuildings? "here in the country" people aren't resourceful enough to run an extension cord from their dryer plugin out a window?
The anecdote about Edison setting the electric car business back by overselling a defective battery solution is interesting. I still think the $2,000 electric car is a hard sell against a $850 Model-T unfortunately. I also thought it was amusing to call a steering wheel "un-ladylike" compared to a tiller arrangement. I think that's more just early vehicles not standardizing on controls and in this case the maker guessed wrong, but they were hardly alone. The late 19th/early 20th century vehicles were full of wacky and confusing control systems.
The steering wheels of the era had a straight steering shaft that the driver had to straddle between their legs. They were considered unladylike for the same reason as bicycles. This was still an era where women competed in horse jumping competitions while riding sidesaddle to protect their modesty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esther_Stace
is it different than the 120k tesla vs the 35k toyota? because they sold like hot cakes. its all about marketing.
The early 20th century was a time when women no longer wanted to be ladies. They wanted to travel on their own wearing more comfortable clothes and even -gasp- have jobs.
I had the pleasure of riding around once in a Detroit Electric. To call it a tea parlor on wheels would have been an understatement. It came equipped with a flower vase, and instead of a steering wheel (how unladylike!) it came with a tiller that would sit across your lap.
These were cars for very wealthy elite women. But just as big of a deal as it was for women to drive - these cars in particular did not require a servant to start, operate, or service.
Sounds like an example of that consumer preferences thing that I've heard called the "pink tax".
Electric powered steering.
Long rides with regular turns took significant strength and endurance without powered steering.
Electric vehicles in comparison are a more relaxed less physically fatiguing drive all round.
Fully manual steering is only a big deal at low speeds, parking lots and the like.
I never got any excitement from driving an electric car, with the exception of the 0-60 of the powerful ones.
But they are the smoothest commuters I have ever driven. Linear acceleration, super snappy for when you want to overtake, you never need a gas-station if have a garage.
I would take an electric over the camrys and crv’s any day.
I find fascinating the difference between people who think of cars as a tool versus a toy. And certainly for some people it simply depends on which car.
For me, all cars are a tool. I don’t really enjoy driving. Driving is a chore I have to do in order to do things I do like.
I don’t yet own an electric car, but I find them very appealing because they would eliminate a chore from my life: going to the gas station.
I do wonder what it would be like to enjoy driving for its own sake.
Same, I find it especially miserable to drive at night with how car lights have changed to brighter LEDs and people wanting larger and taller cars. Its like getting hit with multiple flash bangs.
In rural areas where car lights are the only illumination, with denser traffic I see continuous strobing and flickering by the adaptive LED and laser headlights.
For me it depends on the state of the roads. If they’re empty, I don’t mind driving and can even enjoy it. If traffic is moderate or above, my opinion of driving takes a hard nosedive.
I’m not even a wild driver. Whenever it’s safe to do so I’m in the right lane doing exactly the speed limit. I just don’t like having to deal with other drivers.
I'd guess that driving was probably more broadly enjoyable for people in the era of manual transmission. That's not to say manual transmissions are fun, but the greater degree of interactivity, control, and skill made it a more interesting and overall enjoyable experience. Also it was kind of cathartic getting up to speed somehow. Driving an automatic is just boring, outside of like others have mentioned - the insane acceleration in an EV.
Manuals on a bridge during traffic though are... unpleasant.
I learnt to drive in a manual and I drive my partner's manual car frequently.
It's more interesting on an open road but horrible to drive in traffic. Overall both of us hate the experience.
I get my new electric car (a Geely) on Wednesday.
4 cylinder cars killed the joy of driving in addition to the lack of manual transmissions.
4 cylinder ICE is premium now. Nowadays compact cars have 3 cylinders.
American drivel. A revvy 4 pots like what Honda used to put in their S2000 or old Type Rs (Integra, Civic) is more exciting than lazy V8s.
I think what killed the joy was traffic and speed cameras.
There's a reason why people take their Ferrari out for a spin in the mountains. Highways are just too safe.
Drive a 4 cylinder AMG and tell me if it "killed the joy" of anything. Incredible motors.
The 718 is also 4 cylinders and a great deal of fun
I agree but am curious what difference being on a bridge makes…
Stopped in traffic on an incline, you have to learn how to not roll backwards. Presumably that’s what was meant.
Even my 2011 Jeep manual transmission has hill start assist, it never rolls backwards .
Interestingly, it will roll forwards if you’re on a steep hill and trying to reverse up it. I guess it doesn’t know which way you want to go ( the computers don’t know what gear you’re in)
Yeah, on the rainbow bridge port arthur texas. Here's an image:
https://www.panews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/35/2020/09/W...
What I find fascinating is people who have never driven a fun car, then get an EV that has some decent acceleration. Then they talk about how fun the car is to drive and say how its the best thing ever. I see these posts all the time, and I just think... Yep, now you get what car enthusiasts have been enjoying all this time. If you just drive Rav4s and other appliances, no wonder you hate driving.
What's a fun car for you, and what parts of the driving experience do you find fun? I drive a car that's widely regarded as boring as fuck, and I love it (Toyota Auris with 1.8 HSD). I really enjoy the scenery rolling by and the problem solving part of the driving, like what roads I take and such. I also really like that the cabin is quiet (compared to my last car), so the engine / wind / etc noise doesn't stress me extra, and that I can hear my music, podcast, or own thoughts better.
I just remembered, I also have this minigame where I make the car consume as little as possible. The UI gives the avg consumption after each drive, so there's immediate feedback on how I did. I currently count 4.1-4.5 l/100 as a success (52-57 us mpg). Nicest I ever got over a meaningful distance is 3.5 l/100 (67 mpg).
My EV is less powerful than my former ICE but way more fun to drive, especially in the mountain area I live in.
Sure, this can be true also. There are a lot of factors that go into what makes a car fun.
I also dislike driving; it's just a chore.
Except, it all somehow changes when I pop into the driver's seat of a manual transmission car.
You are just swapping one chore for another. Now instead of going to the gas station occasional, you have to plug it in, all the time. Or you have to go to a plugging station and sit there for a while.
Not sure if you’re joking but I will gladly replace going to the gas station with taking 10 seconds to plug in my car when I get home.
...I assume that's satire? I plug in our EV once a week at home, it takes like what, 5 seconds? Maybe 10 if I'm distracted. Another 5 seconds to unplug it the following morning.
I don't drive in my day to day life but I have enjoyed things like karting or rally driving and I like sim racing video games, maybe try some of those out. Driving for fun at least for me is more about seeing what you can do with a car than anything else.
I'm with you exactly. However, motorcycles I thoroughly enjoy.
[dead]
>>I never got any excitement from driving an electric car, with the exception of the 0-60 of the powerful ones.
I've owned some really powerful cars in the past, and I swear I have never had as much fun as I did when I took our little Volkswagen e-Up to the Lake District for a week, yes it only has 80bhp but only a tonne of weight and instant torque - it was sooooo much fun on these narrow tight roads, you could really push it and just enjoy every second of it. I even drove the Hardknott Pass several times back to back because it was so much fun - I'd take it over my Mercedes AMG any day, yes it was cool to do 160mph past Berlin at 4am in that, but the little 80bhp Volkswagen gives me about 20x more enjoyment in day to day driving.
I don’t miss gear changes and clutch control any more than I miss a manual choke or tuning carburettors. They were fun in a way but they were intermediate goals between me and going fast. EVs skip straight to the fast.
I never got any excitement from driving an electric car, with the exception of the 0-60 of the powerful ones.
Huh? I never got any excitement from driving any car except the powerful ones.
And I gotta say, EV6 GT 0-60 in 3 seconds for $60k with a real suspension (not that Tesla garbage) and active electronic rear differential... get it while you can. Nothing remotely close for even twice the price. Its the NSX of the 2020s.
Garbage you say? The Tesla garbage suspension that gets 0.96g vs the EV6 GTs 0.92g? Or were you comparing the $60k top of the line Kia against the $40k base model 3 instead of the performance model (still cheaper at $55k)?
On the track: The Tesla finishes a massive 6.5 seconds faster than the Kia. Despite the EV6 GT's horsepower advantage on straightaways, the Model 3 Performance utilizes its lighter weight (~4,035 lbs vs. the Kia's ~4,800 lbs) and lower center of gravity to carry vastly superior speed through VIR’s demanding technical sections, such as the famous Climbing Esses.
And they had to remove features found on lower trims like electric seats from the GT6 model because weight I guess?
I rented both for a day before buying one. The M3P is more comfortable on the street and more predictable in anger.
But if we can put aside our team spirit, yes, I agree, EVs are the performance car of choice. EVs are the fastest car under 100mph and $100k. An RS3 will beat us over 100mph and a $140k Z06 will beat us all the time. For ~60k, performance EVs can’t be beat.
Quibble - an RS3 is probably never going to beat an M3P. Not quite enough power.
Yeah I don’t know where I got that from. They are actually tied for VIR hot lap. So yay! Ah the 2022 RS3 came with sticky tires and got a better time. The main thing tho is that the RS3 can do it again and again. If it’s even a two lap race, the EVs die (to thermals).
I'm quite intrigued, but I can't find listings for a $60k EV6 GT anywhere. Can you give me some more info?
I see tons of $35k listings, but maybe they are confusing GT with GT-Line? Or it depreciated by 2x over the past couple years?
The naming is obnoxiously confusing.
The EV6 GT is the fast one, 577hp.
The EV6 GT-Line is barely half that, 325hp.
Whoever invented this naming is a complete moron. But their company makes an amazing car.
So many people swear by Miata! Not powerful, not fast, but a blast to drive !
I drove a Miata for years in the early 00's. It was one of the early models, so dramatically underpowered, but still a blast. I found it fun to drive in the exact same way bikes are fun to ride. I could hit any line around any corner, the stick shift was tight. I even learned how to heel-toe shift (even though I never got good at it)
I think it was car and driver reviewing the new corvette that said the vette was so stable and poised that to have any fun it it you’d be breaking any speed limits on backroads so if you lost control you’d probably die, and maybe you should just by a Miata instead!
The 2.0L ND2 does the 0-60 in 6s. Still not fast, but not slow either! Get them before they're discontinued (it is in Europe, I got lucky).
Skill issue. Small EVs are the most fun if you know how to handle them.
> I would take an electric over the camrys and crv’s any day
I think this completely misunderstands why people are buying a Camry or CRV.
I'm driving a gas RAV4 while my EV is in the shop, and it's a truly miserable driving experience.
Yeah? What EV are you comparing it to?
Anyone who can't find fun driving in even econoboxes isn't trying. Nearly everyone will run out of skill before they run out of car on the right kind of road.
I think that, fortunately, most people don't consider the road to be a place where you're supposed to find fun driving. Perhaps for a lot of people on the road the realization that they shouldn't be pushing themselves, or their car, at anywhere near the limit kicks in long before any kind of fun starts.
You can have fun without driving dangerously. You don't have to drive near the limits or even that fast if you have a good car.
Pssst there are lots of roads that aren't public transport infrastructure
Fun driving isn’t just limited to the spirited kind.
That is correct, I am not trying to have fun while driving to work or driving my kids to school.
I mean, I wouldn't object to having fun while doing it, but I'm pretty sure anything people would use an example of "fun" would massively increase the danger to me and everyone around me.
By right kind of road I assume you mean track.
I thought the old (new) Top Gear episodes with celebrities in a reasonably priced car vs F1 drivers in the same car was very fascinating. The F1 drivers managing to wring that much more out of the little cheap car.
Gross, we had a version of this 15 years ago from Ars (0 upvotes) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3855928
Had me spooked for a sec with a title like that until I reread it.
Quieter cars that don't smell bad are definitely an improvement especially for noise pollution, but car companies didn't care at the time as they tried to make them a necessity in American life.
Also I never got the appeal of ridiculously loud cars especially ones that just end up sounding like a bad time on the toilet.
Perhaps you haven't heard the sound of the right engine.
A 4 cylinder is very annoying.
A Detroit V8 sounds very good loud, with the large displacement and the right cam.
The most heavenly sound in the world is a Merlin V12 aircraft engine. (The yootoob videos with engine starts just cannot capture it.) There's even a book about it - "Sigh of a Merlin".
My dad was an Air Force P-51 pilot (with Merlin engine). When he passed, the local aviation museum said they'd do a memorial P-51 flight at the funeral for free, as long as I paid for the gas. Best money I ever spent.
Sometimes I'll hear the distinctive sound of the 4 engine B-17, and they'll be flying low and slow over Lake Washington. A marvelous sight and sound.
I can accept that other people enjoy the sound of loud cars, if you can accept that other people find them almost universally annoying, and would rather be listening to the far quieter sounds of birds, or the breeze in trees, or the conversation they were having.
Hmm, maybe a metaphor would help. Imagine if there was a pretty substantial subculture of people who loved wearing colorful, flashing, unbelievably bright lights on their clothes at all hours of day and night. When you're at an art museum, people will walk between you and the paintings, blinding you for several minutes as even having them in your peripheral vision made it impossible to see much of anything else. When you're walking down the street, you often need to pause what you're doing as they walk past. At home, in bed, trying to sleep? Despite your best efforts with blackout curtains, almost every night in a city, someone manages to light up your room to daylight levels for a few minutes just walking past.
Most of them, you assume, mean no harm and are just having fun and expressing themselves. But having them near you is always disruptive, and you're disinterested in discussions of how what you actually mind is the strobing from low frequencies and the lack of art in poor arrangements and not how FUCKING BRIGHT THEY ARE, TURN THAT SHIT DOWN, WE'RE TRYING TO LIVE IN A SOCIETY WHAT THE FUCK IS WITH YOU?
And maybe you feel bad for freaking out afterward, but it just feels constant, and you understand that living in high-population places involves a certain level of tolerance of people's idiosyncracies, but at a point, it's hard not to feel like the sheer level of disruption and disregard demonstrated by a fairly small level of the population is actually deliberate and malicious.
And also they reek.
> if you can accept that other people find them almost universally annoying
I am well aware of that. I don't drive my loud car after dark so I don't annoy the neighbors. The ones that complain I offer a ride in, they have fun, and we're both happy.
There's also a limit to enjoying the sound, and I wouldn't want to take more than a brief jaunt with it. I only drive it once a week or so.
I used to live in a neighborhood where everyone had a small lawn. When the weather warmed up, and it was the weekend, I'd open the windows. Inevitably, one of my neighbors started their lawnmower, rrrrrrr, and it would take them some ungodly amount of time to mow their lawn. They'd finish, and I'd sigh with relief. A couple minutes later, another neighbor would start up their lawn mower. Etc. Etc. From 8-8, Sat-Sun, you could not open the windows. It was intensely irritating. I was glad to leave that neighborhood.
In another neighborhood where I lived for a time, I shared a fence with my neighbor separating our backyards. He had a little yappy dog that yapped all day. All day. No respite.
Our street with gas-powered leaf blowers from Monday to Thursday. Icing is that they’re illegal too, but not enforced.
Then you aren't the problem, and we can easily coexist!
I really miss the sound and smell and feedback you get from ICE. Here almost every vehicle is electric and it’s, weird. I dont have a car but a electric moped, they seriously suck compared to the ICE ones (charge every day instead of gas once a month, no control/shitty firmware: delays between breaking and gas, 1/0 power, no real granularity), oh yeah no clutch also… arghhh
I've often had the dubious pleasure of standing behind an idling CNG-powered city bus. And breathing in the exhaust tastes like... "oxygen" was my first reaction, but perhaps more like "a firehose of normal air". It's probably not recommended to breathe it for long periods, but it doesn't have that natural discouragement built-in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_natural_gas
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Are smashed tail lights legal to drive with where you are at? I am pretty sure you are supposed to replace them..
You are... That's why you can guess the driver :)
Poor and coloured?
They aren't?
They still are I think. If I had to guess what women want in a car, it's probably something easy to maintain, quiet.
I think what's unappealing to women about EVs is the unreliability with respect to range and charging availability. I struggled with my mom to charge an EV she rented for an inter-city trip and she swore off EVs for a while.
Slate truck is a good example, I saw that ad where it is like decal'd for a flower shop for example. It's pretty small and cute (I suppose electric cars are easier to customize aestheticially in terms of shape as long as you stick to the skateboard format), and the fact that it is quite different-looking than most trucks left some wondering who it's for. Mostly women I think.
Whereas men buy more trucks, and usually there is sort of a power aspect to it where they want something that feels and sounds powerful (and being a gas car is part of that), so they can race it or can pull a toy hauler or something. Women want more of a commuter, but not like a sedan, usually something more bulky like an SUV that makes them feel safe. And then like bachelors and gay guys want like a 2D coupe or a roadster or something.
But it is interesting how these niches influence the market.
It's like most of the money in every market these days is made by cornering the market a certain lifestyle and increasing markup rather than trying to produce some ultra-efficient everyman vehicle. The innovation is all in advertising and consumer control, that's how I feel about every market these days.
If GE cemented the electric car as a must-have for women of the time, then we would have seen advances battery tech and EVs decades earlier. It would eventually have become mainstream with men as well (think of how the wristwatch was originially seen as a women's accessory, back when men had pocketwatches). The real innovation is in controlling consumer sentiment.
Apparently electric cars are for women and men secure enough in their masculinity that they don't require a truck with its own zip code? This is some post.
And then some of us scratch both itches at the same time. I daily a Tesla M3P but I also bought an F150 Lightning. Which, ironically perhaps, my wife daily drives. I don't know that it qualifies for it's own zip code, but it has all the upsides of a truck with all the upsides of an EV.
Thats cool I think, the electric cars do have a lot more torque and I can see that being useful in a truck. But the F150 production was halted because it was a largely unsuccessful.
And now that it's out of production, the parts are gonna be scarce. Speaking as someone with a chevy volt that has a screwed up battery. Unless you go with a prius or a tesla something you're not gonna get a reasonably-priced battery replacement. There really ought to be a standard battery form factor for EVs...
I think if you look at something at aptera, it's really the lightest vehicles that can take advantage of electrification. I mean, they are proposing 1000-mile range, with solar panels on the back that can recover as much as 40 miles of charge a day. It would be incredible if they can pull it off.
> There really ought to be a standard battery form factor for EVs...
Seems unlikely to happen since the battery is part of a space optimization problem.
Maybe as battery technology matures, the benefits of a set of standarized sizes will win over per-model (sometimes per-trim) sizes.
But we used to have standardized headlights and those went away, so I don't have much hope.
> Seems unlikely to happen since the battery is part of a space optimization problem.
I agree, in general, but the Lightning is a counter example. It uses modules, which do not maximize usage of available space, but do make it way easier to replace just one part and not the whole pack. And it is way more plausible that replacements could economically be made in the future that fit the same footprint. Maybe using entirely different battery chemistry.
Here is a picture: https://www.rdforum.org/attachments/222074/
The F150 production was halted because Ford had a constraint on aluminum that capped how many F150s (of any variety) they could produce, and the Lightning had the tightest margins. It was the best selling electric truck when they pulled the plug. And Farley could see the writing on the wall -- we were headed into a (minimum) four year period where the federal government was going to actively punish anybody making technology perceived to be 'green'. Easier to switch over to something less of a political target and give over the future of cars to the Chinese. Farley drove a Chinese EV for some time as his daily driver and he knew the US manufacturers were cooked. Take a look at Australia now, that is where we are headed.
> chevy volt
Yes, GM screwed you over on that. Best case is it failing under warranty and them buying back the car. The nice thing about the battery in the Lightning is that it isn't really a bespoke pack. It's a big sealed case with 9 battery modules wired together inside. So they don't have to spin up a custom production line to make more, they just need to build boxes of the same dimensions and compatible voltages, or update the BMS calibration. This is a way easier lift than making a custom one-off battery pack for a Volt.
> if you look at something at aptera
I see a tricycle, not a car, with a small number of die-hard enthusiasts who are slowly recognizing that it is DOA. Best I can tell, it's just a grift at this point. They've been making big promises since 2006, been liquidated once already, and still haven't delivered anything. They've narrowed their definition of success to "up to 40 cars for the most enthusiastic customers", maybe in early 2027 ... if they get the funding. Riiiiight.
Well you would think so where I live. I'm the only guy I know who drives a hybrid let alone an EV, other than my friend who has a beater crz (mild hybrid).
Charging your own electric car from the wall is also a challenge here in the country unless you own your own house or are willing to pay higher-than-gas prices.
"here in the country" people don't already have outdoor 240 outlets for RV hookups and welders? "here in the country" people don't run power to their sheds and outbuildings? "here in the country" people aren't resourceful enough to run an extension cord from their dryer plugin out a window?