> Amazon Sidewalk[0] is a low-bandwidth long-range wireless communication protocol developed by Amazon. It uses Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) for short distance communication, and 900 MHz LoRa and other frequencies for longer distances.
If you are open to projectors they still make “home cinema” projectors that don’t have any smart features or connect to the internet.
I have a BenQ (710tki iirc) that is like this and I believe it meets all your stated requirements (size, resolution, etc). I’ve been very happy with it.
This is what I landed on as well - projector connected to an Apple TV. It cost a bit more, and there’s some extra setup, but the results are excellent.
The main issue switching to a projector is figuring out where you are going to position it (different projectors have different throw distances).
More money and more setup, but very worthwhile in the end IMO.
Sadly the Samsung TV I have was the best display for the price by a mile, so I've done what i can to balance usage and protection. Its connected to the wifi to allow for AirPlay natively.
The tv has a fixed IP at the router to block all traffic in and out of the network, and as a visibility layer its DNS'd through a PiHole too.
Its unbelievably talkative over the network! In the 7 days just passed, its been 90% of the blocked requests by volume (there's no allowed domains from that IP).
I'm still not convinced it isn't sneaking out data somehow - piggybacking off a connection somewhere to the neighbors TV. Its HDMI runs through a stereo amplifier, so it can't piggy-back off the connected PC that runs it.
Maybe the PC (Mint) can run AirPlay somehow and I can disconnect it entirely from the internet?
I feel overly paranoid about this device relative to everything else in the house, I'm not sure how justified that is.
Buy any TV you want, ignore all instructions to connect it to the internet, then look for an HDMI port on the back. Plug an HDMI cable into one end, and in the other end plug in a cheap Linux computer like a used Intel NUC from ebay. Then use a nice air-mouse remote like the Pepper Jobs W10.
I watch any movie or TV show I want in 4k via Kodi, but then can alt tab to a Terminal or a real web browser.
Privacy, and dramatically more functionality than any TV would ship with anyway.
Using this setup to type this message right now on pc hooked to a projector in my garage from my couch.
It turns out we never needed Smart TVs in the first place. Just treat it as a screen for a desktop computer.
Samsung TVs (and probably others) will connect to other Samsung TVs in range and exfiltrate data via that route… merely not connecting the TV doesn’t present data harvesting
Iirc, Amazon uses a tool they call “sidewalk” for this purpose
In that case, jailbreak it, or open it and unsolder the wifi antenna, or put some well placed copper tape until you no longer see any wifi traffic from the TV from other wifi capable devices running a wifi packet inspector.
The TV belongs to you and it will obey you with modest effort.
Or use something Kodi as the OS and just have a TV like interface. You can also run a Jellyfin client on linux or with Kodi and have that as a reasonable interface for the TV too.
Got a Bravia TV for cheap back in 2014 that happened to be pre-Android TV (and pre-Google TV) so Android TV was just released and those something-else-os were "outdated".
Sony stopped releasing security patches a while back and there are no longer apps whatsoever and they all were crap - the youtube one was pure torture because of how slow it was and the web browser was just as miserable as ie6.
But besides that I can send it commands to it via its IP and control it, consume stuff via a DLNA daemon, do screen mirroring, and all the usual tv stuff. The image quality and sound are still great after 10+ years though I can't care less about oled 4k 120Hz and all that stuff. So it's no longer a "smart" tv but it's not also so "dumb" for a now dumb tv.
I don't know how true it still is, but dumb TVs have traditionally been marketed as "commercial displays". You'll pay more and have to bring your own media, of course.
I believe those displays intended for static advertising etc are not set up for good refresh rate or cinema viewing, so they'll have very poor e.g. ghosting during action sequences, low contrast ratios, a lot like a LCD TV from the early 2000s.
I rooted my LG C1 and honestly I can't go back to an unrooted TV. Game streaming works so much better(I can actually install the apps). I can control everything so Home Assistant automations are much better. Internet is blocked so no nagging or ads, But they are turn off via root just in case.
Now I have a weekend project in the future, assuming I can find a compatible process for my hardware. Never connected to the network, but the thing makes a few ever annoying popups I would love to disable. Or at least ensure that no "helpful" guest fills in the wifi information when I am not looking.
I allow my Samsung to connect to my local network, but then use openwrt and refuse to allow any outbound data from any IP using the MAC address of the television set. It cant update itself and no traffic suggests it can do anything regardless of what it might be collecting. Rooting it to prevent it from connecting to other wifi AP’s is probably the only better thing.
Don't smart TVs (of LG or others?) connect to open networks of neighbors, like Vodafone hotspots? That was told to me at least.
So only disconnecting the antenna or destroying it would work, unless you live remotely.
Ah, here:
> DiabloD3 43 minutes ago | unvote | parent | next [–]
Doesn't work, all the spyware modules connect to open Wifi of neighbors, and soon, LTE.
reply
> nvme0n1p1 37 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
This is repeated every time this topic comes up, but so far it's just a conspiracy theory. An urban legend. An old wives' tale. Are there any documented cases of this happening?
I like LG OLED quality. My lg tv has never been connected to the internet and connects to a avr that handles inputs and 5.1.2 speakers Nvidia shield with hdmi-cec to turn on/off the receiver and tv. Jellyfin, android tv app for cable company, YouTube sans ads and projectivy launcher (Google one sucks). You can update firmware via usb stick. Would get an Apple TV if it died but like my Dolby vision HDR10 and atmos. Highly recommend.
Imagine you wouldn’t have this but technically the front two speakers are on a much higher end naim amplifier (connected to my audio stuff) but it has avr pass through. Sometimes an extra button to switch it to turn the front two speakers back to avr mode.
As everyone is saying: just don't let it on the network. It's a little annoying because you can't have smart home stuff like "turn off the TV when I leave the house" working, but that's it.
My thing is, don't use an Apple TV. For the last 15 years or so I've just used a Mac Mini plugged into a big TV, and it's perfect. Get a wireless keyboard and trackpad and one of the many available trays that will hold them together. I'm literally typing this right now on this exact setup.
Any AndroidTV and then run CleanYourTV [1] on it, gets completely rid of all Google ads and additional bloatware by the manufacturer. Maybe run Claude against the repo first to check for malware but going by the number of stars it seems to be solid.
I shop for elite televisions at the “reuse” center, my latest score was a 2013 Panasonic plasma which is a perfectly good dumb TV hooked up to an XBOX ONE and a home theatre. Downstairs I have a big curved Samsung 4K attached to my big PC. Someday I’ll see the high end OLED that I crave.
If you have the room and price is no object you definitely want at least 5.1 theatre, both movies and TV programs sound great in 5.1. The next step up is a second subwoofer, even for music subwoofers take a load off your other speakers and reduce distortion.
Anybody has experience with TCL and Spectre? I'm seeing them a lot, even saw one really big TCL TV in a local shop and loved the colors and the FPS, but no idea how good are they really, are they longer-lasting, are they annoying if you don't give them network access etc.
This is repeated every time this topic comes up, but so far it's just a conspiracy theory. An urban legend. An old wives' tale. Are there any documented cases of this happening?
With TV makers having recently destroyed trust and there not being a good way for consumers to force trust it makes little difference whether they are doing it or not.
If you can't tell whether your disconnected TV is spying on you but you know that you cannot trust it, it's better to treat it as compromised.
probably, but I'll let gp answer. But I want guarantees that they don't do that, until them I'll consider the fact that if they can and it's profitable they will do it
If you want a guarantee, that's a conservative threat model and a fair position. What's not fair is GP saying "doesn't work, all the TVs do XYZ", when not a single TV in the real world has ever actually done XYZ.
Ultimately I'll need to find data to settle how paranoid I might be. I'm still leaning on not enough. But isn't it also not fair to claim not a single tv has done it? Proving an universal is not easy for gp but the inverse of forall is not a not exists.
And I know the world of middle management profit optimization.
I indeed cannot prove it. I also can't universally prove that wombats don't have telekinesis. But the preponderance of the evidence points to neither being true.
I know there are lots of advocacy groups and youtube channels that are testing TV models and would LOVE to be the first to break this story and publicly shame Samsung or whoever. But it simply hasn't happened.
Samsung is the worst by far. Samsung (TizenOS) does not respect even privacy opt outs. It seems like LG, Google TV OS (Sony) and Fire TV OS (Amazon) and VidaaOS at least do that.
Disconnect the TV from internet and use a solution like Apple TV for apps you would like in TV. Even better is a Mini PC connected to the TV if you are savvy enough.
Sadly they no longer make or restock their dumb TVs. They're desktop monitor only.
I bought one of their TVs in 2019, it's fabulous if your criteria is "turns on, displays what is connected to its inputs, and has decent video quality", and nothing more. I would recommend them heartily, if you can get access to one.
A solid late 80s RCA Colortrak 2000 with down-converter is a solid choice and excellent conversation piece. Hardwood finish, or go for the full console experience. Best part is it can't call anything.
Ok I'm cheating, it's a monitor. Only it's the size of a TV and there's a remote.
But no tuner and no ARC.
But I don't care.
Zero smarts, boots in a millisecond, auto-wakes on device power-up, input switching just works, no half-baked HDMI-CEC hell. No wifi. No network. Nothing to spy on me because it's a FUCKING MONITOR and THAT'S IT.
I recently was stressed about the same & ended up buying an LG C6, sticking it on an isolated VLAN, rooting it, then just letting it hit my NAS for jellyfin.
Personally, I used to be very privacy-conscious, but have given up on enforcing it everywhere over the years. I still care, more than most people I know in real life, but when it comes to stuff like TV's I just get whatever has the best panel for the lowest price. Last time I bought a TV, that was an LG TV running WebOS, which is not exactly the best from a privacy standpoint. Initially I used it with an Apple TV, but now I just use the native apps and try to disable the telemetry that I can in the settings panel.
I went and researched this, and found that basically none of the TV brands were anything but creepy on privacy.
What I’ve ended up doing was I got an LG and never hooked it up to Wifi/internet, and then use an Apple TV to watch things on.
It’s a bit annoying if I want to switch to a game console as Apple TV can’t control the TV’s input channel, but otherwise works very well.
Make sure the TV supports HDMI CEC.
>I went and researched this, and found that basically none of the TV brands were anything but creepy on privacy.
Yeah they do. Go to your shopping center or airport and you'll see LG and Samsung displays everywhere. And that's the key word, 'displays' not 'TVs'.
Both sell large displays meant for 100% user ownership with no spyware or mandatory internet connection, you just have to buy those and not their TVs.
The catch? They come at steep prices compared to consumer TVs, unless you can land a deal on the used market.
With Amazon Sidewalk I don't think not hooking it up to the internet is an option anymore, unless you live out in the boonies
> Amazon Sidewalk[0] is a low-bandwidth long-range wireless communication protocol developed by Amazon. It uses Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) for short distance communication, and 900 MHz LoRa and other frequencies for longer distances.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Sidewalk
New business idea: fitted faraday cages for smart tvs
If you are open to projectors they still make “home cinema” projectors that don’t have any smart features or connect to the internet.
I have a BenQ (710tki iirc) that is like this and I believe it meets all your stated requirements (size, resolution, etc). I’ve been very happy with it.
This is what I landed on as well - projector connected to an Apple TV. It cost a bit more, and there’s some extra setup, but the results are excellent.
The main issue switching to a projector is figuring out where you are going to position it (different projectors have different throw distances).
More money and more setup, but very worthwhile in the end IMO.
Sadly the Samsung TV I have was the best display for the price by a mile, so I've done what i can to balance usage and protection. Its connected to the wifi to allow for AirPlay natively. The tv has a fixed IP at the router to block all traffic in and out of the network, and as a visibility layer its DNS'd through a PiHole too.
Its unbelievably talkative over the network! In the 7 days just passed, its been 90% of the blocked requests by volume (there's no allowed domains from that IP).
I'm still not convinced it isn't sneaking out data somehow - piggybacking off a connection somewhere to the neighbors TV. Its HDMI runs through a stereo amplifier, so it can't piggy-back off the connected PC that runs it.
Maybe the PC (Mint) can run AirPlay somehow and I can disconnect it entirely from the internet?
I feel overly paranoid about this device relative to everything else in the house, I'm not sure how justified that is.
Buy any TV you want, ignore all instructions to connect it to the internet, then look for an HDMI port on the back. Plug an HDMI cable into one end, and in the other end plug in a cheap Linux computer like a used Intel NUC from ebay. Then use a nice air-mouse remote like the Pepper Jobs W10.
I watch any movie or TV show I want in 4k via Kodi, but then can alt tab to a Terminal or a real web browser.
Privacy, and dramatically more functionality than any TV would ship with anyway.
Using this setup to type this message right now on pc hooked to a projector in my garage from my couch.
It turns out we never needed Smart TVs in the first place. Just treat it as a screen for a desktop computer.
Samsung TVs (and probably others) will connect to other Samsung TVs in range and exfiltrate data via that route… merely not connecting the TV doesn’t present data harvesting
Iirc, Amazon uses a tool they call “sidewalk” for this purpose
In that case, jailbreak it, or open it and unsolder the wifi antenna, or put some well placed copper tape until you no longer see any wifi traffic from the TV from other wifi capable devices running a wifi packet inspector.
The TV belongs to you and it will obey you with modest effort.
Alternatively, don't give your money to e-waste vendors.
Yes. Or you can do the same thing with a regular monitor that has no wifi capabilities at all. Some are quite large, good quality and good price.
Or use something Kodi as the OS and just have a TV like interface. You can also run a Jellyfin client on linux or with Kodi and have that as a reasonable interface for the TV too.
Got a Bravia TV for cheap back in 2014 that happened to be pre-Android TV (and pre-Google TV) so Android TV was just released and those something-else-os were "outdated".
Sony stopped releasing security patches a while back and there are no longer apps whatsoever and they all were crap - the youtube one was pure torture because of how slow it was and the web browser was just as miserable as ie6.
But besides that I can send it commands to it via its IP and control it, consume stuff via a DLNA daemon, do screen mirroring, and all the usual tv stuff. The image quality and sound are still great after 10+ years though I can't care less about oled 4k 120Hz and all that stuff. So it's no longer a "smart" tv but it's not also so "dumb" for a now dumb tv.
I don't know how true it still is, but dumb TVs have traditionally been marketed as "commercial displays". You'll pay more and have to bring your own media, of course.
> commercial displays
These are generally meant to display (static) advertisement media, you'll have a false experience watching movies or playing games on them.
What is "a false experience"?
I believe those displays intended for static advertising etc are not set up for good refresh rate or cinema viewing, so they'll have very poor e.g. ghosting during action sequences, low contrast ratios, a lot like a LCD TV from the early 2000s.
Ah, I see. I saw some do that in front of fashion shops or jewelries, yep.
I rooted my LG C1 and honestly I can't go back to an unrooted TV. Game streaming works so much better(I can actually install the apps). I can control everything so Home Assistant automations are much better. Internet is blocked so no nagging or ads, But they are turn off via root just in case.
Now I have a weekend project in the future, assuming I can find a compatible process for my hardware. Never connected to the network, but the thing makes a few ever annoying popups I would love to disable. Or at least ensure that no "helpful" guest fills in the wifi information when I am not looking.
I allow my Samsung to connect to my local network, but then use openwrt and refuse to allow any outbound data from any IP using the MAC address of the television set. It cant update itself and no traffic suggests it can do anything regardless of what it might be collecting. Rooting it to prevent it from connecting to other wifi AP’s is probably the only better thing.
Don't smart TVs (of LG or others?) connect to open networks of neighbors, like Vodafone hotspots? That was told to me at least.
So only disconnecting the antenna or destroying it would work, unless you live remotely.
Ah, here:
> DiabloD3 43 minutes ago | unvote | parent | next [–]
Doesn't work, all the spyware modules connect to open Wifi of neighbors, and soon, LTE.
reply
> nvme0n1p1 37 minutes ago | root | parent | next [–]
This is repeated every time this topic comes up, but so far it's just a conspiracy theory. An urban legend. An old wives' tale. Are there any documented cases of this happening?
reply
I'd recommend a search, this gets asked at least once a year
I like LG OLED quality. My lg tv has never been connected to the internet and connects to a avr that handles inputs and 5.1.2 speakers Nvidia shield with hdmi-cec to turn on/off the receiver and tv. Jellyfin, android tv app for cable company, YouTube sans ads and projectivy launcher (Google one sucks). You can update firmware via usb stick. Would get an Apple TV if it died but like my Dolby vision HDR10 and atmos. Highly recommend.
Imagine you wouldn’t have this but technically the front two speakers are on a much higher end naim amplifier (connected to my audio stuff) but it has avr pass through. Sometimes an extra button to switch it to turn the front two speakers back to avr mode.
Keep the glass disconnected from the network forever and it will solve the vast majority of your concerns.
Jellyfin is the answer if you are looking to spend a premium on a privacy-focused media experience.
Huge fan of "never give it wifi, hook it up to a little linux box, remote control it via input leap" myself
As everyone is saying: just don't let it on the network. It's a little annoying because you can't have smart home stuff like "turn off the TV when I leave the house" working, but that's it.
My thing is, don't use an Apple TV. For the last 15 years or so I've just used a Mac Mini plugged into a big TV, and it's perfect. Get a wireless keyboard and trackpad and one of the many available trays that will hold them together. I'm literally typing this right now on this exact setup.
you can let it on the network, just block it from leaving the network. Lets you have the remote control features but without the risk.
I’m sticking with my 2010 Toshiba REGZA until it dies. 1080p is fine for me.
Any AndroidTV and then run CleanYourTV [1] on it, gets completely rid of all Google ads and additional bloatware by the manufacturer. Maybe run Claude against the repo first to check for malware but going by the number of stars it seems to be solid.
[1] https://github.com/Gathin23/cleanyourtv
The fact that we even need to have this conversation is messed up...
Thanks everyone for more practical comments, definitively bookmaking this post.
I shop for elite televisions at the “reuse” center, my latest score was a 2013 Panasonic plasma which is a perfectly good dumb TV hooked up to an XBOX ONE and a home theatre. Downstairs I have a big curved Samsung 4K attached to my big PC. Someday I’ll see the high end OLED that I crave.
If you have the room and price is no object you definitely want at least 5.1 theatre, both movies and TV programs sound great in 5.1. The next step up is a second subwoofer, even for music subwoofers take a load off your other speakers and reduce distortion.
Anybody has experience with TCL and Spectre? I'm seeing them a lot, even saw one really big TCL TV in a local shop and loved the colors and the FPS, but no idea how good are they really, are they longer-lasting, are they annoying if you don't give them network access etc.
- Buy any TV you want
- Don't connect it to the network
Doesn't work, all the spyware modules connect to open Wifi of neighbors, and soon, LTE.
This is repeated every time this topic comes up, but so far it's just a conspiracy theory. An urban legend. An old wives' tale. Are there any documented cases of this happening?
With TV makers having recently destroyed trust and there not being a good way for consumers to force trust it makes little difference whether they are doing it or not.
If you can't tell whether your disconnected TV is spying on you but you know that you cannot trust it, it's better to treat it as compromised.
Amazon Sidewalk is a real life product that offers this over bluetooth
Just because something exists as a product, doesn't mean it exists inside your TV.
probably, but I'll let gp answer. But I want guarantees that they don't do that, until them I'll consider the fact that if they can and it's profitable they will do it
If you want a guarantee, that's a conservative threat model and a fair position. What's not fair is GP saying "doesn't work, all the TVs do XYZ", when not a single TV in the real world has ever actually done XYZ.
Ultimately I'll need to find data to settle how paranoid I might be. I'm still leaning on not enough. But isn't it also not fair to claim not a single tv has done it? Proving an universal is not easy for gp but the inverse of forall is not a not exists. And I know the world of middle management profit optimization.
I indeed cannot prove it. I also can't universally prove that wombats don't have telekinesis. But the preponderance of the evidence points to neither being true.
I know there are lots of advocacy groups and youtube channels that are testing TV models and would LOVE to be the first to break this story and publicly shame Samsung or whoever. But it simply hasn't happened.
Until we learn they Bluetooth beacon and do mesh to find some Internet connected LG fridge.
Samsung is the worst by far. Samsung (TizenOS) does not respect even privacy opt outs. It seems like LG, Google TV OS (Sony) and Fire TV OS (Amazon) and VidaaOS at least do that.
https://allaboutcookies.org/smart-tv-tracking-privacy-opt-ou...
Never connect to internet is the best option.
Disconnect the TV from internet and use a solution like Apple TV for apps you would like in TV. Even better is a Mini PC connected to the TV if you are savvy enough.
https://www.sceptre.com/ seems to be pretty much the only remaining brand of non-smart TVs left. However, I have no experience of them.
Sadly they no longer make or restock their dumb TVs. They're desktop monitor only.
I bought one of their TVs in 2019, it's fabulous if your criteria is "turns on, displays what is connected to its inputs, and has decent video quality", and nothing more. I would recommend them heartily, if you can get access to one.
A solid late 80s RCA Colortrak 2000 with down-converter is a solid choice and excellent conversation piece. Hardwood finish, or go for the full console experience. Best part is it can't call anything.
A large format monitor that does not connect to the Internet nor has any smarts at all.
Also, do not plug any Internet-facing devices into it, have a captive SBC that connects to a LAN server hosting (legally owned) videos.
You can use a Sony Bravia connected to an Apple TV without connecting the Sony to the internet.
I just dont connect mine to the internet, hook up an Apple TV to it.
I think the answer now changes with ability to root some of these tvs.
Still, might be best to run an android tv box yourself, and plug hdmi.
Just open up whatever you buy and pull the networking components, microphones, and covert cameras. Leverage HDMI after that. Problem solved.
Digital signage displays are dumb PC screens in giant sizes, like you are looking for.
Buy something used that was manufactured before ca 2018. Or get a projector that doesn't have any smart stuff built in.
LG Ultragear 48GQ900-B
Ok I'm cheating, it's a monitor. Only it's the size of a TV and there's a remote.
But no tuner and no ARC.
But I don't care.
Zero smarts, boots in a millisecond, auto-wakes on device power-up, input switching just works, no half-baked HDMI-CEC hell. No wifi. No network. Nothing to spy on me because it's a FUCKING MONITOR and THAT'S IT.
https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-48gq900-b-gaming-monitor
Don't connect it to a network, buy a mini pc and install Linux on it. Get a Logitech k400 keyboard with an integrated touchpad to control it remotely
I recently was stressed about the same & ended up buying an LG C6, sticking it on an isolated VLAN, rooting it, then just letting it hit my NAS for jellyfin.
just pick a PC screen with TV sizes, although they might max out at 55 inches. displayspecifications.com has many hits for what has no FRC then.
Tvs can themselves have their privacy improved by never connecting it to WIFI, except, maybe for software updates, if needed (rare).
The smarts you connect to the TV can vary.
Apple Ts manage things in some good ways.
NVidia Shields are good in others for Android TV.
The Android TV platform is likely more customizable (check youtube the past few weeks) to get it how you want.
Last, but not least, some poeple may just hook up a web browser to the TV and then contain that.
My honest answer at this point is none.
Personally, I used to be very privacy-conscious, but have given up on enforcing it everywhere over the years. I still care, more than most people I know in real life, but when it comes to stuff like TV's I just get whatever has the best panel for the lowest price. Last time I bought a TV, that was an LG TV running WebOS, which is not exactly the best from a privacy standpoint. Initially I used it with an Apple TV, but now I just use the native apps and try to disable the telemetry that I can in the settings panel.
sorry to interject on your experience, but this sounds really bleak